Kreena Dhiman  0:00  

Cancer is like one of the hardest things you could go through, and then infertility is also one of the toughest things young women go through, and to have to navigate them together was an absolute sort of, you know, mind blowing experience. My heart function was 6% and my prognosis was that I was going to die within 24 hours. This woman just saw me for who I was and all I wanted to be, which was a mum.

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Amber Izzo  0:37  

Hello, you are listening to Misconception, a Gaia family podcast. My name is Amber Izzo, and I am your host. Each week we release a new episode talking about the various paths to parenthood, from community stories to conversations with experts. We've got you covered. Gaia's mission is to make IVF more accessible for more people with a financial plan that allows you to start and protect your IVF and access to a community who just get it. We're here for you. You can request a free personalized quote at gaiafamily.com this week, we are talking to Kreena Dhiman. Her story is one. We have broken into two parts, and so this week, you are listening to part one. Kreena talks openly and eloquently about her journey with breast cancer, heart failure, IVF and surrogacy. It's an incredibly emotional story, and Kreena is someone whose journey I feel so honored to be able to share with you. She's an incredible individual whose story continues to move and inspire so without further ado, let's bring her in. Kreena, hello. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you?

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Kreena Dhiman  1:48  

I'm really good. Thank you. How are you?

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Amber Izzo  1:49  

I'm good. It's really lovely to see you. As I explained before we came on, I have already introduced you to our listeners very briefly, but I'm going to hand over to you and let you kind of tell your story from your perspective.

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Kreena Dhiman  2:03  

Sure. So yeah, I'm Kreena Dhiman. I'm a mum of four, which is, I guess, the most important thing to open with. But it didn't come easily. So I, you know, I was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was 33 and I guess that was the start of my infertility journey. And, you know, unbeknownst to me, life was going to really change in so many ways. So I essentially became infertile through cancer treatment, one, because I was put in a medical menopause, and two, because the chemotherapy damaged my ovaries. I then went on to sort of have some, you know, severe cardiac conditions as a result of chemotherapy, which meant I couldn't carry a pregnancy. And so this dream of becoming a mum that I'd held my entire life, it just sort of fell away overnight, almost. And the path to parenthood was very, very difficult, but, you know, I got there in the end, two wonderful surrogates, some, you know, crazy level IVF, alongside chemotherapy, and then, yeah, and then surrogacy as well, to to add to the bag. But, you know, they brought my four miracles to me, so no complaints.

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Amber Izzo  3:13  

Amazing. I mean, your story is such a, I would say, a different one to what we usually hear in the infertility community, because you'd already gone through so much before, even heading into the IVF world and kind of and dealing with that. I mean, while you were at all, kind of trying to conceive before you'd received your cancer diagnosis, or was it not something that you'd really even thought about at that point?

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Kreena Dhiman  3:37  

Well, it was. It was something, you know, we'd been married for two, two and a half years, two and a half to three years by the time my diagnosis came, and definitely for the first couple of years, we were enjoying ourselves and traveling and doing all of those, you know, things you do when you're you haven't got children, but I would say that year up to My diagnosis was the one where we were thinking about our family and, you know, we're like, well, we've done our travels, we've bought our house, we've kind of done all of the things you do before, you know, children come along, if you're doing, you know, very conventionally. So it was this. It was a case of if, if we'd felt pregnant, it would have, it would never have been a problem, you know, but, but we weren't. We weren't consciously trying to get pregnant. But it was, it was definitely, you know, our game plan for for that period of time before cancer, um, kind of disrupted everything.

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Amber Izzo  4:25  

So how was that kind of realization that you needed to go into fertility treatment that obviously, like, I say, you already had so much going on at the time that, how did that, how did that translate? How did that feel, and that that process? I mean, what, what kind of was going through your head in that in those moments,

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Kreena Dhiman  4:42  

it was really tricky. And I talk about this quite often, because sometimes you go to IVF thinking, you know, it's almost falsely so. But the golden ticket to having the child that you haven't been able to have naturally, and, you know, you think it's going to be a wonderful thing was for us, it came at a time where we'd. Had the worst news sort of thing. So doing IVF was just like, I say, I just sort of boarded a cancer train, and IVF was a stop on the train, you know, to just mitigate risk in the future. And it wasn't an easy one, either. So my breast cancer was hormonally sensitive, which meant that it was feeding off the estrogen in my body and and the progesterone, and so, you know, the I came to my oncologist, and there was, you know, obviously a lot of stuff had gone on before, and I'd done a lot of research, but ultimately, I said to my oncologist before I started chemo, and he'd talk to me about fertility risk and the, you know, the loss of fertility, and he'd said, there's a real risk that you won't be able to conceive after treatment. And I immediately just said to him, but if I outlive the disease, like I can't see a future without children, that's that's always been a future, and I don't want to survive cancer to just almost not be able to fulfill that dream. And I asked to go through chemotherapy because I'd known that some people had had fertility preservation. Sorry, I asked to go through IVF before chemotherapy, because I know that some people had had that option, like it's been on forums and stuff. And so when I said to him, Can I can I go through IVF before we start chemo, he was really reluctant, because he didn't want to spend more time out of chemotherapy because the cancer was very aggressive, and also the biggest problem was that the cancer was so hormonally sensitive. Going into IVF, obviously, you pump your body with hormones, and I've got this tumor that's trying to kill me and feeding off hormones, so you're just feeding it more of what it wants. And his exact line was, my job is to save your life, not to create a new life. And I'll never forget that, because, you know, in two ways, like I get it, I absolutely get that. That's the job of the oncologist, but the one thing I always talk about is seeing the patient as the patient, and their whole holistic like care package. And if you are going to keep someone alive, you have to look at the quality of life they're going to have after that. And for me, children was a huge part of it. And, you know, eventually we did find a way to go through fertility preservation, and my husband and I had to have some really serious conversations around, you know, if we did this and it made the council worse or more aggressive, and it, you know, increased the risk of my own mortality. Well, were you okay with that? And, and, you know, so IVF was never like a savior, you know, it was always a thing we just had to do and we had to get through it. And, yeah, it was really tough. And I remember when we did go through treatment, and when I was in the IVF clinic, and I just felt so I felt like everything was unfair. You know, I think anyway, on when you're on an infertility journey, it feels really unfair, because everyone else is having children, it seems around you and you're so triggered. And for me, it was like, Well, I didn't even research infertility because I didn't see it coming. And I it's not that I'd had that sort of run up to it, where we'd been gently eased into, you know, okay, we haven't been able to get pregnant this month. We haven't been able to get pregnant this month then. So it wasn't ever on my radar until cancer appeared. And I think, for a woman, you know, especially for a young woman like us, cancer is like, one of the hardest things you could go through. And then infertility is also one of the toughest things young women go through, and to have to navigate them together was an absolute sort of, you know, mind blowing experience, and I don't think I really was able to give IVF the headspace it required. Until I was way out of cancer treatment, and I started to sort of have therapy about, you know, the whole thing of saving life and creating life at the same time, it just, it was so complicated, and the emotions were just so they were just so contradictory, almost, you know, I remember when I had my embryos, when we sort of had a phone call about the embryos and that, you know, how many we'd stay, how many we'd created and stuff, I couldn't feel happy for them at all. I really was just like, well, you know, well, either creating them has given us, you know, a potential baby in the future, but what if I'm not alive to see that, you know what? Because I was still in the midst of the cancer world, and so I didn't know how long I'd have to live. So it was very much a case of like, yeah, we've created these embryos, but what if I'm dead before we do anything with them, you know? And then, like, perversely, I would think, well, at least I've done something to leave a little bit of me on planet earth if I die. And Sati and I would have conversations, and I'd be like, well, I'm going to sign the consent that you can use the embryos If I die, because then at least my child would be here, and you might find another partner, and you might raise that child. Like, I don't know, we just have these weird thoughts about what could happen with with these embryos, because there's just no certainty that you're going to stick around for them.

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Amber Izzo  10:12  

It's, I mean, it's given me goosebumps just the thought of having these kind of conversations. Like, it's, it must have been for you. It must have been terrifying, and it must have been a really strange space to try and try and navigate. And I think, you know, like I say, we all have these conversations when we're going through IVF of, what if this and what if that, but you were physically living through something so terrifying at the same time. I mean, was that? Was the treatment, given the circumstances? Were you able to get that on the NHS, or did you have to go privately for that?

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Kreena Dhiman  10:43  

It's so interesting. I was going to come on to that, because this is something that no one talks about. Because obviously, if you live in a funded postcode, which is obviously a problem, but you know, say you do and you've been trying to conceive, you're funded, right? You get the money for us, I lived in a funded postcode, but I hadn't been trying to conceive for three years, which was the criteria at my GP. And so I'd been given this, I'd been given the green light from my oncologist, and I'd said to him, well, who's going to pay for it? Because also, like, I'm going through a cancer diagnosis, I've had to give up work. You know, I know that money is now going to be a problem because I'm not earning and we hadn't budgeted for this. It's not something we'd expected to have to do. So he said, Well, you know, go and speak to your GP and see where the land lies. I'm not a fertility doctor. I don't know who pays for what. So I went to my GP, and she put, you know, she spoke to me, and she said, Well, to be honest, I don't think it's going to work, but we can put the funding request in because you haven't been trying to conceive for three years. And I said, But I'm I'm going through cancer treatment. And she said, Well, yeah, but these are our guidelines. And so she put the funding request in. And obviously time was also ticking, because my oncologist had given me a maximum of two weeks to harvest my embryos and not a day longer. So I was like, right? I've got two weeks. You're now telling me I'm not funded. We obviously have to get the cycle, you know, in line and, you know, get everything going What? What do we do? And she was like, well, we just have to wait for the CCG to come back to us. And, you know, long story short, the CCG come back to us. She rang me, and she just said, they've said, No, they won't fund you because you don't meet the criteria, and oh my gosh, yeah. And it was so unfair. And I was like, How can this be? Because, you know, I could now come back in three years and say, I have been trying to conceive, but I would have fully lost my fertility. But yet, you'll pay for it because I meet a criteria, but it will be a pointless expense because there'll be nothing to there'll be no eggs, or, you know that my ovaries will be so damaged that it just won't be possible. And so, you know, she said, you can appeal it, but, you know, I wouldn't hold your breath. And you know, given that times of the essence, find, find a way of doing it. So we got an in, we got a credit card out, and we put it on there, we started our treatment, and we put it on a credit card. And we just figured we're going to have to work out how to pay this off later, because right now, we just have to do what we have to do to save my fertility. And then I decided to sort of push for this. And I think because it's a sort of person I am, I pushed really hard, but I find it to be, you know, quite brutal that someone can say no to a person going through cancer who's had no children, whose fertility is just robbed. No, we're not funding you because you haven't been trying to conceive for three years. So I went to nice and I looked at the NICE guidelines, and there was a clear section in the NICE guidelines on if people are going through chemotherapy, they should be funded for a round of IVF. And then I went back to the CCG and the GP, and they said that, well, those are the guidelines. We don't have to adhere to them. These are, you know, and it was a whole back and forth on how they wouldn't fund. And so in the end, and, you know, at this point, I just had a mastectomy. My breast had been cut off. I had like, you know, stitches that were leaking. I still had drains on. And I went to my MP, just looking like that in downer, he had an open day, and I'm like, right? I'm going. And I went, I went to the MP, and I said, How can this possibly be fair that, you know, I'm having to come to you in this state because now my fertility preservation won't be funded. And then I wrote to the CCG, and I put all of my medical history on there, and I just said, this cannot be the case. And at the same time, was then going through all of the sort of IVF process of, you know, getting my my ovaries up to speed, ready for egg collection day. And it just felt like I was juggling everything, juggling an IVF plan, juggling a chemotherapy plan, juggling the funding on lack of funding, finding the money to, you know, fill the gap and dealing with, like, you know, the emotional trauma of going through all of this. And we just kept I kept going, and I kept pushing and I kept pushing. And then two weeks later, on the actual day of my collection, had an email from the CCG to say they have reversed their decision and they will fund us. So eventually we did get fund. But it was one of the hardest things I had to do until that point in time, anyway, to get access to that money. And then there was a whole like, you know, we had to be reimbursed for all the money we'd spent and, you know, admin stuff. And it just was so unnecessary. But I guess, you know, the benefit is that it set a precedent for other people in my area who go through this and, you know, are looking for funding and now that path is being paved so so, you know, it was worth the blood, sweat and tears, but it wasn't easy.

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Amber Izzo  15:25  

No, that's amazing. I mean, to it's, I think, you know, advocating for yourself can be so hard anyway, especially when you're going through such a hard time. And I think the medical system can be so complicated and difficult to get your head around. Like you say, there is so much red tape and all these different guidelines that for you to go through that and do that while you were in the midst of cancer treatment is just amazing. Like, that's a real testament, I think, to your strength and determination, that that that truly is incredible. Um, so after your egg collection, kind of, what were the steps from there? Was everything frozen, and then you went on to finish your treatment and then have a transfer.

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Kreena Dhiman  16:04  

Yeah. So I think the conversation was always in the back of my mind about children, but yes, we so we created embryos. They were they were frozen, and I had no idea. Like I was such a novice in this fertility space back then, I didn't know what a day one embryo was versus a day five? I had no idea. So I just knew that they'd created these embryos and put them in the freezer, and I thought nothing more of it. And you know, in terms of the biology from there on in and throughout my chemotherapy, I would say to my oncologist, you know, when do you think we could try for a baby? You know what? We got three. So I got through chemo, got through radiotherapy, had all my surgery. And before my surgery, I said to my colleges, like, do you think it's a good time to think about having a baby? But the problem was, I had this, you know, like I said, very aggressive, very hormonally sensitive cancer. I also was on a 10 year endocrine therapy path. So, like, even after I finished chemo, I always then put on hormone suppressants for 10 years, which essentially put me into a medical menopause. So everything was shut down that produced estrogen in my body, so I wasn't having periods. So if I wanted to then get pregnant, we'd have to wake up the ovaries, you know, go back into that cycle of, you know, getting the womb lining built up, and all of that sort of stuff. And that, again, involves coming off medication, reintroducing estrogen into the bloodstream, which would then be a risk for a cancer cell to feed back off estrogen and cause a cancer reoccurrence. So it was so complicated, and he would constantly run the statistics through, you know, whatever software he was using to look at my prognosis, and he was just say, it's just too risky, you know, to come off treatment. Now, the risk of recurrence is X percent, you know, it's 70% is 60% you know, it was always high. And I was like, the one thing I never wanted to do was get through that brutal cancer treatment to then try and have a baby, but at the same time, pay for that with the with my own life, or, you know, just reduce the lifespan I could have had. And I have to caveat this with it being very personal to me and the type of cancer I had, because I know plenty of women who do you know, eventually come off their treatment and conceive naturally, or use IVF and have children. But for me, it just was so high risk, and it was something that we couldn't, we couldn't do as a couple, and it was the advice from my team not to get pregnant. So, you know, the first few years, we were just kind of finding our feet and wondering what to do, and I then was starting to explore other options. And I thought, well, I know I've got the embryos. What can I do with them? And, you know, do I let them be and look into adoption, or do I look into surrogacy and try and, you know, ask someone for help? And it very much felt like, because we had the embryo, surrogacy would have been the next port of call in terms of that path to parenthood. And also, you know, I'm always asked, Why did you do everything you did and not just adopt? And I hate the just adopt phrase because it is so condescending to every wonderful parent out there who who has chosen adoption as their path to parenthood. And also, it implies that we're all, we're all able to adopt, and we have, we have it within us to do that, and I don't think we do. I think it takes a really special person to be able to adopt another child, and you have to work so hard for that path to parenthood that it shouldn't be delivered to anyone just because they're infertile, that you have to work to be a parent through adoption, and that's for, you know, so many reasons and and I think that conversation on why didn't you just adopt is really damaging, like in so many ways.

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Amber Izzo  19:52  

I think that's such a compassionate outlook to have. I think whenever we hear about the 'just adopt' within the fertility community, we always talk about how it's really dismissive of the people who are going through fertility treatment, or the people that are struggling to conceive, and how difficult it is, and how it isn't adjust, and they have the right to want, want to have their own children, etc. But I think I've never heard anybody talk about it from the other perspective, and how that actually really diminishes the experience of parents who have gone through the adoption process. That's, yeah, I think that's a really, a really nice way to actually verbalize that. So thank you for that.

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Kreena Dhiman  20:26  

Thank you. Well, you know, I think you know parents through adoption, they're incredible people, and they have a degree of empathy that many of us don't have, and a degree of, sort of their head space is just, it's just elevated compared to some of the rest of us and also the child. The child deserves more than someone who's just adopting. The child deserves someone who's adopting because they want to adopt. So, you know, adoption wasn't on our radar at that time because we knew that surrogacy was something we wanted to do more because we wanted to bring our embryos to life. I say we, I mean, I'm not going to lie. It was me. And, you know, so I started joining forums and looking into surrogacy in different places. And obviously I'm Indian, so I thought, let me see what, what happens in India. And I very quickly dismissed that, because as controversial as this is going to sound, I didn't ever want to become a mum at the expense of someone else, in terms of they had to compromise something to have that child. What I mean there is that in India, you know, I know first hand how surrogacy houses works, and the women that are going into there, and you know, they're so poor, they're so desperate, and this is a way for them to make money for their families. And I didn't want someone to feel like they had to do surrogacy because they had no other way of making money. I wanted someone to carry my child because it was really what they wanted to do. And you know, they hadn't. They had a love for creating families, and the driver wasn't financial. And I know that that might be a bit simplistic on this podcast to explain, but I don't know, something inside of me just said this baby has to be born through love and not money. And I did obviously pay money to have my children, but, but it was the way in which that was paid, that was that that sat right with me. And for some people, time is of the essence, and they have to go commercial. And I totally get it, but again, it's just what was personal to us and our journey. So I quickly dismissed India. I dismissed the states, for the reasons of the commercial surrogacy path, and also because I didn't have enough money, because it's insanely expensive to do surrogacy in the States, and then I looked at the UK system, and it just felt so beautiful, and it has its flaws. You know, there are so many issues with the framework that we work in in the UK, and you know, we do need a change in law for so so many different parts of it. But ultimately, people are not surrogates in the UK because they want to make money out of it, because it's still an altruistic environment. And so it meant that whoever chose to carry my child was doing it for another reason, and I found that really endearing, and I found that something I wanted to lean into. And so whilst it was always going to take a long time, because there aren't so many surrogates in the UK, and it's not, you know, an easy path. I was willing to wait and to put the hard work in that needed to be put into to make that dream come true and to stay here in this country. And also, I wanted to be as close to the pregnancy as I physically could. So I wanted to get to scans. I wanted to build a relationship with my unborn child, and it's it felt like the best way to do it. So I knew from the start that I wouldn't be legal parent to this child because of the way the UK framework works. But the more I looked into surrogacy, and the more I sort of invested time in forums, the more I realized that that actually was just, it was just a piece of paper, and it wasn't something that that worried me overly and I kind of, I know we're totally digressing, and we'll talk about surrogacy more in a minute. I I kind of saw it as like, so, you know, in the UK, the person who gives birth to a child through surrogacy is legal birth parent, right? And so if that person is in is married, that surrogate and their partner become named on the birth certificate, not the intended parents whose embryo it was, even though it was mine and my husband's biology, we wouldn't go on the birth certificate. If our surrogate was married, it would be her and her partner. Our surrogate wasn't married, and so she didn't have to put her partner on. They were sort of living together long term relationship, and never got married. So we had one name could go on the birth certificate. So my husband went on when Amal was born. But my point was that that bit of paper the birth certificate was a bit like when couples lived together and decided. Not to get married because they just don't want the paperwork. They're like, well, we're committed to each other, that whether we've got a paper that says we're married or not is irrelevant. I felt like the birth certificate was like that for me. We're committed to this journey. We know this child is mine. You know, we've gone through this together as a team, and there's no way that the child was ever going to be my surrogates child, because that was never the intention and the intention, and the relationship was so strong that whether the birth certificate said my name or her name, it really wasn't going to bother me, which is why we chose the UK process, because that wasn't a roadblock. And I know for some people it is, and that's why they go to the States, because they feel safer. But for us, I just had seen so many beautiful connections in the community that it was something that I knew was an issue, could potentially be an issue, but if you did your due diligence and had a strong relationship and a strong team, it wouldn't ever manifest to be an issue. So yeah, so chose UK surrogacy for that reason, and we'll talk about that a little bit more. And then, yeah, pop, you know, got through chemotherapy, got through surgery, and then we're thinking really, like, let's, let's really, you know, press the accelerator on fertility and try and have a family. And unfortunately, you know, that was 2015 I had my surgery in November 2015 and in july 2016 I presented in hospital, unable to breathe. We were actually on holiday, celebrating the end of cancer treatment, which was super ironic, because I was rushed into A and E eventually, sort of often, lots of tests, rushed to cardiac intensive care and told I was in acute heart failure. My heart function was 6% and my prognosis was that I was going to die within 24 hours, and it was the hardest time of my life. And up until then, I through a lot, but yeah, that was super, super difficult to navigate. And you know, it transpired that what happened is the chemotherapy that had treated me and saved me from cancer had actually damaged my heart, and over the years, had just damaged it so severely that it wasn't able to pump anymore. It had the whole muscle had just fallen apart, and I was backed up with fluid in my heart, fluid on my lungs. I was just I couldn't breathe, and I kept saying to my husband, like I feel like I'm drowning. I don't know why, but I feel like I'm drowning. And obviously I didn't know I was covered in fluid, but I couldn't breathe. I had to almost like gag, to get any air into my lungs. And yeah, eventually, was in hospital for a very long time, and my family were called over from the UK to sort of say their final goodbyes. And you know, I'll never forget the one moment that Sati and I made eye contact in this sort of hospital environment. We were in A&E, and we just thought, like, how can we how can this have happened after everything that's happened, how can this now happen? It's so bloody unfair. And yeah, it was. It was a really, really tough time getting through heart failure, I feel like that was almost more severe than getting through the cancer, because with cancer, it's a bit of a slow burner, like you get diagnosed and then you get a treatment plan, and you're going through the treatment and you've got time to sort of get your head around what's going on with heart failure. It was like, well, one minute I'm on a plane going on a holiday, and the next I'm in A and E, and then I from A and E. I mean, it was like a scene out of er, when they realized what was wrong with me, they pressed a button, these lights started flashing, sirens went off, you know, stuff was trucked on my bed, and I was just whooshed down a corridor to cardiac intensive care, and like it was just, it came out of the blue. We hadn't seen it coming, and the severity and the acuteness of it meant, and we didn't know anything about it, meant that we were really, really afraid that that was the end. But fortunately, I responded to treatment better than anyone could ever have expected. It was a really slow recovery. I went from being totally bed bound to sort of being able to sit in a chair, being able to not breathe, to sort of breathing with minimal oxygen. Eventually I was discharged from hospital. I couldn't walk, I was in a wheelchair.

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I couldn't leave the country, so we're in Canada, so we had to stay for a couple of months. And then very, very, you know, after sort of eight weeks, we were like, given some more tests, and I was like, I just need to get home. I, you know, I have to get back to England. That's where I live. And I, if I'm going to die, I want to die in England. And so eventually, got put on a plane. My heart function at that point had risen to 11% and they were like, Well, we think you can go. We'll give you medical assistance, and we'll make sure you've got oxygen for the flight. And blah, blah, blah. So got flown back to England, and then started a really long journey of recovery from, you know, a wheelchair, to being able to walk, to being able to run, to, you know, today I have a really normal life, which, touch wood is just the most amazing thing in the world. But it was grueling. And so we had another. Obstacle to get through before we had children, and we did, but bizarrely, through it. One I was in Vancouver. When I was in Vancouver, a lady had messaged me, and by this point, I'd been on the surrogacy forums for a little while, sort of researching anyway. And this one person contacted me, and I just thought she was wonderful. I don't know why. There was something about her. And I said to her, well, she'd, she'd seen me on the surrogacy forum. She said, I'd love to get to know you more. And I said, Well, I'm really on a world in Canada. I don't even know if I'm going to get back. I don't know if I'm going to get better. I don't know if I'm going to be able to be a mom at this point. Like, I just don't know where the land lies. And she was like, well, you're there, you know? I think you're going to be fine. Enjoy it, you know, to the best of your ability, make the most of the time you've got there. And when you're back in England, I'll be here waiting. And I was like, my god, like, I don't know her, but she just gave me this hope. And I definitely had, like, I'm very spiritual, and I definitely in that room intensive care had like, an awakening where, you know, all the doctors were saying to me, you might not survive, but literally, my soul was like, You're gonna survive. You're gonna survive, and and, and I think, like what I've learned through all of my adversity is to listen to really listen to your voice within, and to tune into your truth. And so I just did that, and I held on to hope, and I got back. And then that lady was Ena. We talked when we got back to England, we met in 2017 we met up a couple of times, actually, 2016 2017 we were sort of getting to know each other really well, and eventually we matched. You know, we'd been told by all of my professionals now that there was no way I was ever going to be pregnant. You know, heart failure just put the final nail in the coffin. It was never going to happen. So I knew if I was going to survive heart failure, it would have to then be surrogacy that brought Parenthood to me. Yeah, so I continued to get to know Ena, in the knowing that actually this would be my only way of becoming a mom and and, yeah, you know, I can. It was 2016 when I went into heart failure. And in 20 by 2019 you know, I, I was trekking the Himalayas, and I was already a mom like it was an incredible three years that was, and it started with, you know, one foot in front of the other one, WhatsApp, one. You know, everything starts with one, doesn't it? You have to, you have to begin somewhere, but it all grew into something amazing. And with Ena, what I found was, you know, we'd met with other surrogates before, and I don't want anyone to think finding a surrogate is the easiest thing in the world, because it's not, you know, we had to meet with quite a few people and talk to a few people and realize they weren't our fit, to know who was our right fit. It's just like dating. So with, you know, you know, we talked, and then we met, and one of the things she said to me, which was really lovely, was that she didn't want me to put her on a pedestal, because I because she would make me a mum. And she said that, you know, we were both gonna gain from this relationship, because she wanted to do this, and that for me, was what I was looking for. Because I think for infertile women, we are often made to feel inferior, whether that's through our own judgment or societal judgment, like we feel like we failed, and I felt like this woman just saw me for who I was and all I wanted to be, which was a mum. And also, you know, in the surrogacy space, we hear it time and time again, where people are like, Oh my God. Your surrogates, amazing. Your surrogates incredible, which absolutely she is. And every surrogate out there is absolutely wonderful, but the intended mother or the intended parent, you know, the person who's gone through the infertility struggle, they are also incredible human beings for everything they've gone through before that point, and everything they've had to navigate and the adversity they've had to face, but also in this space, it was a sacrifice that had had to be made. You know, in order to become a mum through surrogacy, you have to give up everything that feels so natural to you, and that is, you know, carrying your baby, getting pregnant, nourishing yourself in the way that you want to, you know, doing it, doing the classes you want to do, to bring your baby into the world safely, doing all of that stuff, you have to give it up like I'd never imagined a future where someone else would carry my baby. I'd always envisioned a future where I would have a bump and me and my husband would have a baby photo shoot, and I'd be on, you know, I'd be the one holding a pregnancy stick and telling my husband, oh, my god, we're having a baby. I had to dream that that was all going to be me. And the minute you turn to surrogacy, you lose all of that. So I wanted to make sure that the relationship I had with my surrogate, acknowledged all of that trauma, and that's a sacrifice, and that's what I got with Ena, and I think that's what also pushed me to do a lot of the work I do, because I think sometimes you feel so unseen as an intended mother in a surrogacy setting, you're just seem to be you. Almost seen as the woman who was lucky enough to have a child. And, you know, I don't subscribe to the word luck whatsoever in any part of my life. I think that's a really disempowering word and very condescending to the work people put in. And I don't think I was lucky. I think I actually curated the present that I live in. And and I think the reason I matched with Ina was because she saw that, you know, and, and she she acknowledged that, and the relationship just grew and grew from there. And so we spent the best part of a year getting to know each other, and then we sort of were talking to our fertility clinic and talking about our embryos, and we'd have conversations. And this is the thing with Sarah Cali, you have in depth conversations with people that you never would have if you were just trying to conceive naturally or even going through IVF, because we have to talk about what would happen if she's pregnant and me and my husband died, you know, who would look after the baby? We'd have to talk about, you know, how many times we'll try before we separate as a team? What would happen if we had a miscarriage? What would happen if there was a stillbirth? What would happen if, you know, all of these horrendous things were were to happen, we have to talk about them before we even get pregnant. And every time we spoke about them, we were aligned, so we knew that this was a match, you know, when we went through a surrogacy agreement. So there are agreements out there for people who go through independent surrogacy I should say, if you want to go through an independent surrogacy journey, there are options in terms of getting templates. So an agreement is not legally binding in this country, but I see it as it's the way you intend to enter into this relationship. And it should be seen as legally binding. Legally binding if you're a good human being, like you know, you don't have to rely on the law to acknowledge all of the points in an agreement. You just have to be a decent human being, and you know, and acknowledge that this is what you're both agreeing to in this scenario. So we had an agreement, and it all, you know, we went through everything. And I think also it's worth taking a step back, actually. So I did go through independent surrogacy. And in the UK, there are two options for surrogacy agency or independent. And the reason we didn't go through an agency, I mean, it was complex. But firstly, agencies have ratios, and so if they've got too many intended parents, ie couples looking to become parents to surrogates, they close their books. So a lot of them have, like, a three to one ratio or a four to one ratio. So if there's too many books get closed and you get put on a wait list. So when we were looking, that's what was happening, the most accessible agencies had their books closed, so we couldn't join them. The ones that weren't closed had really expensive fees. So you know the cheapest, I guess, agency, and we can find all this on the intended parent website, which will link maybe in your show notes. But the cheapest agency is probably around about 2000 pounds that surrogacy UK. And then the most expensive, I think, is closer to 30,000 to join. That's to just join and before your expenses. And that was brilliant beginnings. They offer very different services. You know, one is sort of just a introductory forum type thing, which is what Suk offer. And then brilliant beginnings, offer a much more comprehensive offering, where they'll help you with your agreements, they'll provide legal guidance, they'll help you with the matching process. They're really hands on, so you're you're paying for the service that you're getting, and you have to choose what's right for you. For us, the expensive option was out of budget, because we still you have to pay your expenses on top of that. So we just didn't have the money. And then the cheaper options had books closed, so it was, you know, and then you do have to accept that on top of your agency fee, you have your surrogate expenses, which I think the average now, you know, don't quote me, is somewhere around 15 to 18,000 at the lower end, and can go up to sort of 24 25,000

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at the higher end. So there's another big chunk of money that's needed for surrogate expenses. And then obviously you've got to pay for your IVF treatment as well. So that could be 10s of 1000s, depending on how many rounds you need. So it's a big, expensive, financial commitment that you've got to make, and for us, paying a high end agency just wasn't one of the options we had available to us. So I started looking at independent surrogacy and realized that actually, despite what people say, it is quite a safe space, because if you're doing gestational surrogacy or traditional surrogacy. So gestational surrogacy is where the the embryo doesn't belong to the surrogate in any way. Traditional surrogacy is where the surrogate has used her own egg to create an embryo. Our advice, especially over on the intended parent, which is my business in the surrogacy space, is always to use a clinic. So even if you're using the surrogate's own egg, don't do home inseminations, because the minute you go through a fertility clinic, you're then having to work within the HFEA framework, which means you're having to have counseling, you're having to have blood tests done, you're having to go through all of the due diligence that is required to get pregnant through IVF or donor conception via a fertility clinic. So you have protection there. People always say, like, independent surrogacy. Oh, it's rubbish because there's no protection. People can steal your baby. People can just do what they want. You know, you don't know if people are got their DBS checks. You don't know if their health's in the right place. But actually, if you do it through a clinic, you have to tick all those boxes anyway, so you are protected, and you're only then the only place where the protection, I guess, isn't there, is where the law isn't on your side in terms of who gives birth to the pet, the child, is legal parent like that's the only thing that I believe is different when you Do surrogacy through an agency. But sorry, surrogacy through a clinic in the UK versus surrogacy overseas. Even if you go through an agency, you're not going to get through that legal nuance. Even you go through an agency, you're still going to have to go and get a parental order to become legal parents of your child. So we had to weigh up everything that was going on in in the surrogacy landscape and what worked for us, and so we chose to do gestational surrogacy via independent forums to find our surrogate, but obviously, be treated in an IVF clinic. So that's what we did. And so about, I think it was what it was about 11 months after having known the Ena that we tried to get pregnant. And so we went to my clinic, and, you know, those precious embryos that I had no relationship with in 2013 now became like, you know, my my biggest hope for parenthood and my savior in so many ways. So we had a conversation, and Ena only ever wanted to have one embryo transferred into her. So we're like, right? It's a one Amber single embryo transfer. It's here that I started to learn about a day one embryo versus a day five. So whilst I'd be told that I had 12, you know, very good day one embryos, I realized that I was going to lose a lot of them because we had to go out grow them to day five. So we took all 12 out of the freezer and, you know, left them to grow and see what they would do. And, you know, we came to embryo transfer day, and I've been in touch with the clinic every day, and ahead of that to see how we were doing, and things were looking good, we had a good, good chance of, you know, at least one, um, healthy embryo to transfer. So I sat in a room, talked to the embryologist, and they said, Well, you've got like these. There's, you know, you've lost four or five. We know that they're not going to be viable at all. And then there's this pool of like, four or five embryos. One is a clear, you know, contender for transfer. This one's doing really well. You can see all the cells, and they were showing us, like the blastocyst, and all of the cells and these are the three or four look like they're coming up really well as well. So we'll refreeze those. In case you want a sibling journey, which we'd always said, like refreeze any remaining embryos for a sibling, and transfer the one embryo into ena. So we went through that process. We transferred the embryo into her, and then it's just the most agonizing two week wait. Because, God, this is a two week wait where you're in you have no control, like, you know, I didn't know what you know was going to go home and do. I didn't know if she was going to sit with their legs against a wall, or she was going to go and jump on a trampoline, or if she was going to, you know, didn't know what she was going to do. Obviously, she was going to take as much care of her body as she could. But again, it's like you just have to surrender and accept that they're going to look after this child and, you know, bring you what you really, really, really, really want. And so it was a it was a painful few days, and my husband and I knew it was going to be grueling, so we booked a couple of days. Just got on a Euro star, gone to Belgium, because we're like, well, we just need to get out of the country, because otherwise we're going to drive each other mad, and I'm probably going to drive it in a mad by keep messaging her to see you know what's going on. So we took a few days out, and it was a Thursday. We'd been through our transfer, and I called the clinic on the Friday just to figure out how many embryos they'd refrozen. Because although you know, we want this one to take if it doesn't, we're like, well, we have more embryos to try again. And no one picked up the phone all day. Friday, I didn't get a message, I didn't get a call. I was like, why is someone calling me back? And then tried again on the Saturday, tried again on the Monday. I thought, why on earth is this clinic not calling me back? What's going on? Eventually got through to them, you know, the Monday, Tuesday of the following week, and I said, look, I've been calling you because we needed an update on how many embryos went back into the freezer? Obviously, by this point, we don't know if we're pregnant. We're only five, four or five days post transfer, and then the clinic just says to me, oh, I, Mrs. Dhiman, I think there's been an error. We didn't refreeze any embryos. And I was like, What do you mean? What do you mean? Four days ago, I had four embryos going back in the freezer, and they said, oh no, we discarded them. Oh, my goodness. My world came crashing down at that point in time. I was just devastated. I thought, how the hell has that happened? How have we gone from having four, you know, we in our head, we're like, if this one doesn't work, we've at least got three other chances to now it, it has to work, because we have no other option. And then, you know that, I feel like that is a separate conversation on what went on with that clinic, but, but what happened from that point is the pressure was on, you know, and I think Ena really felt the pressure that if this embryo doesn't take we had no other options. It's not even like I could go and harvest embryos again, because my oncology treatment wouldn't let me do that. So this one little, you know, embryo that was inside her was our only hope. And so on it went. The two week wait became even more grueling, until one day, Satie and I were in Wickes, and Ena. Ena had been messaging me, you know, she was reassuring me, sure that greener, it's going to work. I know it's going to work, it's going to work. And then she said, Shall I pee on some sticks? And I was like, No, we agreed to wait, you know, we're just going to do the blood test, because it can't be dealing with, you know, peeing on sticks, and then that not being the reality, and then dealing with the fallout from it. So let's just wait for the blood test. Um, but little did I know, you know, women in the two week, wait, pee on a lot of sticks.

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So she'd obviously been doing that at home, and then one day, just sent me this picture. I thought, Oh, what's that picture she's sending me? Again, I've never had to pee on a stick, like I've never tried to get pregnant. And she basically said, like, I think I'm pregnant, and I'm we're in the, we're literally in, I think, I think it was Wickes, anyway, in a queue. And I'm looking at Sati, and Sati's looking at me, like, what are you looking at your phone so intently for? And I'm like, It's Ena. I think, I think she's pregnant. And he did not want anything to do with it. He's like, I'm waiting for the blood test. I'm not dealing with a pregnancy test. We're just gonna wait for the blood test. It's only another few days away. Stop talking to me. So he kind of went into this, like, down mode, and I was like, I want to be so hopeful for this. I want to be so hopeful with this, but I don't want to be because I'm so scared that it's not going to be, you know, like that hope and that you want to build yourself up, but you're so afraid of it being taken away. And I know people listening to this all resonate with that, you know? So I was so it was such a complex range of emotions, but eventually, like she then sent me a clear blue test that I had never done one of these in my life. And so there's this video comes up on my whatsapp, and I'm like, what she's sending me now. Let me just let me just open it. And then she goes, Kreena. I'm just, you have to watch it. You have to watch it. I know you're saying you don't want to see these things, but you have to. So I watched it, and like, I sound like such a goon now when I say this, but I watched this thing and I'd never seen a test say the word pregnant, and it flashed up. And even now it's coming up, right? I would just, I just cried. I just cried so much. I was like, how on earth, you know, have we gone from the odds that we had, the journey we've had, to this stick now says we're pregnant. Like, I can't believe it. And so, yeah, that was the day before our blood test. And then the next day we went in and we had the blood test, and yeah, as as expected, she was pregnant, and that was our first transfer, and it was the most beautiful thing ever. And God, we were so grateful for that because of everything else that had gone on. And we were like, well, you know, forget about the embryos. Forget about everything, because now our energy just has to be on getting this embryo and this pregnancy to term and bringing this, this little baby into our world. So that was it. The next nine months was just about us enjoying each other and enjoying the pregnancy and like parking everything that had gone on before that, and just being in the moment of, Wow, this little human being is being grown and being created by this wonderful woman who's making all our dreams come true. And it was a beautiful pregnancy, because, you know, Sati and I had wanted a child so much, and Ena had wanted to give someone a child so much that we just loved being near each other and with each other and keeping each other updated. And she would send me all of her midwife appointment notes, and we'd have, like, we had these baby bumps, and we would read to the baby, and she would put it on her tummy, and we would, you know, just had so much beautiful connection. And we were there for all our scans. And every scan she had, we were by her side, and we had, you know, then we had series of private scans just for us to get some lovely images. And it was just gorgeous. And then, you know, before, you know, went into labor, we knew the due date was the end of April. So we were like, Well, do you know what two weeks, three weeks before that, life stopped for us, and it's all about the baby. So we packed a car, and we packed up our bags, and we we. Located up to bath, which is where Ian lived, got a little cottage and just set ourselves up because we knew that we wanted to not miss the lake. We didn't want to miss the, you know, the birth at all. So we thought if we just move up to the area, we'd be closer, because otherwise we'd be three hours away. And, you know, there's every chance we'd miss it. So we packed ourselves up, rented an Airbnb, and just set up shop and waited for our baby to arrive. And in that in that time, we had, like, dinners with Ena and her family, and we got, you know, closer as a team, and then eventually went into labor on the 27th of April, 2018 and my gorgeous daughter was born, you know, at eight o'clock in the evening, and it was just the most magical, magical experience of my life, bringing her in after, you know, all the adversity, and I think anyone who's been through an infertility or journey will know that actually becoming a parent for the first time after that struggle is just magic like honestly it is there's nothing in this world. I could compare it to nothing at all. You know, other just nothing. Becoming a mom after infertility is the most wonderful thing ever, and I don't take it for granted at all. And Amal is going to be six in a couple of weeks time. One month today, she's six. And, yeah, it's just, I can't believe, like that was only part of our story.

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Amber Izzo  51:28  

Kreena, I mean, your story is, it's incredible, and I think, you know, this is only half of it. And so we have agreed that this episode is going to be a part one and a part two, purely for that reason. So for part one, we will close off here, and then everybody will be able to listen to part two next week. I can't tell you how honored I feel to sit here and talk to you about your story like you truly are. I feel quite emotional listening to you, and I think even talking to you now, I can feel myself getting a little bit getting a little bit upset, but for all the right reasons, I think you are truly one of the most amazing women I have ever had the privilege of speaking to. So thank you so much for coming and sharing your story with us. I'm really looking forward to speaking to you again and doing part two. So just for anybody who's kind of listening to part one before part two is released, please just tell everybody where they can they can find you and continue to follow your story.

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Kreena Dhiman  52:30  

Yeah, sure. So you can find me on Instagram, really. So I'm at 'kreenadhiman'. If you're looking at surrogacy specific content, it's at 'theintendedparent', and then websites on the same title, so kreenadhiman.com, or theintendedparent.co.uk, for all your resources, or the intended parent on Spotify for our podcast.

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Amber Izzo  52:54  

Amazing. And I will pop everything in the show notes as well, so people can just click on the link and find you there. But thank you so much for joining us, and I'll see you next week.

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Kreena Dhiman  53:03  

See you soon.

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Amber Izzo  53:06  

Kreena Dhiman, everyone, this is only part of her story. As she mentioned, she is now a mother of four, and so join us next week as we discuss the second part of her fertility journey, and after the loss of her remaining embryos, how she continued her path to build her family. In the meantime, don't forget to rate review and subscribe to our podcast, and we'll see you next week for part two of Kreena's story with another episode of Misconception. See you next week. 

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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