Kreena Dhiman  0:00  

Any sort of vulnerability was always perceived as weakness. We were never allowed to be vulnerable. I think because I was losing the genetics and I was losing the ability to carry the pregnancy,

‍

it really bridged the gap for me. You know, again, it's a double edged sword, because Laura, the last thing Laura said to me is that, you know, you need to think about what you want. 

‍

Hello,

‍

Amber Izzo  0:19  

Hello, you are listening to Misconception, a Gaia family podcast. My name is Amber Izzo, and I am your host. Each week we release a new episode talking about the various paths to parenthood, from community stories to conversations with experts. We've got you covered. Gaia's mission is to make IVF more accessible for more people with a financial plan that allows you to start and protect your IVF and access to a community who just get it. We're here for you. You can request a free, personalized quote at gaiafamily.com

‍

This week, we are speaking again to Kreena Dhiman. If you haven't listened to part one of Kreena's episode, then please go back now and listen, she's an amazing woman. And in part one, Kreena spoke about how her breast cancer and heart failure led to her infertility and turning to surrogacy to conceive her daughter. Now she joins us to tell the rest of her story, from donor treatment to IVF abroad, finding a surrogate, and what happens when an embryo splits, how her family went from one child to four. Let's bring her in. Kreena, welcome back. Hello. How are you? 

‍

Kreena Dhiman  1:27  

Hello. I'm good. Thank you. 

‍

Amber Izzo  1:29  

Good. It's really nice to have you on again. I love that we're doing a part two. This is, this is brilliant. So for anyone who maybe hasn't listened to the first one yet, a go back and do so, but B, if you haven't, then could you just kind of give a really, kind of brief overview of where, where we ended, really, so they know kind of your story up to now? 

‍

Yeah,

‍

Kreena Dhiman  1:52  

Yeah, I think so, you know, a really quick overview, as we spoke about sort of my breast cancer diagnosis and how that led to my initial infertility and how I'd had to preserve embryos ahead of chemotherapy. Then we spoke about how I'd gone into heart failure after my breast cancer, which made pregnancy incredibly difficult, and therefore we looked into surrogacy. For many reasons, chose the UK and underwent a UK surrogacy journey, and very thankfully, gave, you know, that gave rise to my daughter being born in 2018.

‍

and that was part one, I guess, of the story. 

‍

Amber Izzo  2:30  

It was a very, very, very condensed version, but you can listen to the full hour. I can't remember which episode number it is. I think it's six, but you can go back and listen to part one there. But the reason we're doing a part two is because your story absolutely did not end there.

‍

So if you'd kind of, I'm gonna very much kind of hand the reins over to you, because I think you tell your story so beautifully. You know, I'll interject when I have questions, but I think you tell it so well, and yeah, so after your daughter was born.

‍

Kreena Dhiman  3:02  

Yeah, next so a series of things happened. I can't remember if in the last episode we talked, we spoke about how we lost our remaining embryos once we transferred amalas embryos. And so,

‍

you know, we obviously were pregnant, we had Amala and then we naturally really thought about siblings. And we were like, you know, what? What should we do? How will we go about making this stream of, you know, a family? We always wanted more than one child, so it was like, you know, how do we go about making that happen? And we knew it was complicated again, because I wouldn't be able to carry the pregnancy. We also knew sort of a few A little while later that my initial surrogate wouldn't be able to carry a pregnancy. So a second journey would need us to find a second surrogate, and then the added complexity came of needing to also find donor eggs. Because we didn't have any embryos left, I was unable to harvest anymore, and so it kind of felt like we had to almost start from scratch again. You know there was, there was nothing from our first journey that we were able to go back and use. So there weren't embryos there, you know, there wasn't a surrogate there. So we started again, and that was, you know, it when I look back now and, you know, it's poignant that it's National Infertility Awareness Week, as we're recording, because I've done so much of that walking down memory lane, and what this, what this week felt like. And it's also my daughter's sixth birthday coming up, and you know, It all brings it brings it all back. And I've been thinking about, you know, how when we go through the infertility journey, when you start on it, you know so little, and then you come out and start doing this advocacy work, and you know so much, and it's easy to get carried away and think, oh, yeah, this is great. This is normal. But none of this is normal. You know, the mountains you move to have children in this way is not normal. And it's, it's really complex. So when it came to having, you know, a sibling for a mala we looked at egg donation, and very quickly found that there were very few donors of color in. UK. And so that was our first, I guess, initial obstacle, you know, if we wanted, if we wanted a child who matched my sort of looks, it wasn't going to be easy to do that. And so we contacted a few egg banks, and the weight was, it was an extensive weight, you know, for a South Asian donor, and we therefore decided to look at other options. And I think in the back of my mind the I didn't want to actually use an anonymous donor either. I think I was looking for something more, and that was partly because I wasn't going to carry the pregnancy. So I wanted something that was going to connect me to these embryos in a different way, and for me, that was knowing who my donor was. Now that wasn't possible through my friends or family network. There wasn't sort of anyone volunteering, you know, saying, you know, we'd happily donate our eggs to you. So I knew that we would have to do something quite different. And after lots and lots of research, we kind of stumbled. I stumbled across egg donation overseas, known egg donation, and this was where, you know, intended parents were able to meet their donor on the day of egg harvesting and just get to know them a little bit. For us, it was an opportunity to know a little bit more about our donor, to create a connection, to capture some pictures for our future child, so that they sort of a had access to that person in the future if they wanted to. And B just gave me, I don't know it was just, it just felt right for me, you know, I know some people felt, Oh, my God, that's crazy. I wouldn't want that level of connection. But I think because I was losing the genetics and I was losing the ability to carry the pregnancy, it really bridged the gap for me. So as soon as we looked at it, I was like, This is what I've been looking for. So we ended up finding a donor who looked very much like me. She was a South Asian girl, and she was from South Africa. So it was a very there were a lot of am I involved in creating sort of the sibling journey. So our donor was from South Africa, because of the fact we were using a known egg donor, it was easier to do the treatment outside of the UK, so we worked with a clinic in North Cyprus. So she flew from South Africa to North Cyprus for egg harvesting, and we, as a family, Amal as Sati and I, flew from the UK to North Cyprus to meet her and to create the embryos. And that was really beautiful. I remember sort of, we had an agent who was working through all of this with us, and she said to me, Amber times, you know, you don't all have to come. You can just send your husband to create the embryos, and you know, that will be it. And I, you know, I distinctly remember me saying to her, that's not how this works for me. This is our family. This is, you know, hopefully, you know, the next chapter in creating

‍

the last of our children. And I want us all to be present for that. And I want Amala to be there, and I want her to know this wonderful lady, because Amala has always been, I've always educated her on surrogacy and how she's come to be, and she knows who INA is my first surrogate, and we have a photo of her in our house, and she's very much, you know what, whilst we might not see her frequently because she lives far away, she's very much part of normal conversation and part of our family. And so I kind of wanted that for our donor. And so, you know, we were all went over there, and it was actually the most beautiful experience of, you know, of my life, in a way, meeting this wonderful girl who was willing to sort of put her life in South Africa on hold to come and donate her eggs for us. And, you know, we were meant to have a 10 minute chat, and it turned into like a three and a half hour just, you know, it was connection on every level. And you know, when I found her as a donor, we'd been given lots of other profiles, and I'd gone through all these other profiles, and it just didn't fit. They just, I just couldn't make any of the other ladies work. And then this lady sort of came out of nowhere. She wasn't on, she wasn't due to donate again. But the, you know, the agent said, look, there's this one lady. She's in between jobs. If you can work within a certain date, you know, it might, it might be able to pan out for you. And as soon as her profile landed, you know, it's a bit like dating, you know, they write a little bit about themselves. They write about what their favorite life quotes are, what their passions and interests are, and everything just aligned. I think, you know, one of my favorite life quotes is that if your dreams, if people don't laugh at your dreams, they're not big enough. And one of that, yeah, and one of hers, the opening thing on her profile said something like, if your dreams don't scare you, they're not big enough. And I was like, it was just perfect. And so I knew she would be our donor. Thankfully, everything worked out. You know, the universe was on our side on this one, and we made it work. And you know, when we then met in person, it was, it was, honestly, so beautiful. And I know that's not the case for everyone, and some people. Want just a hi, how are you? And a picture. And other people want more, but the donor doesn't want more. But for us, it just married up beautifully, and we both wanted more, and we both had more. And so we had a lovely day with her, and we created our embryos, and then we spent a couple of more days in Cyprus before coming back to the UK. And when we returned, we found out that we'd had a really successful embryo creation round, and we had, you know, seven very good quality embryos in the freezer. And that was just wonderful for us to know that, you know, we'd started our journey to our sibling. And then what happened was we found out that Ina, who was our first surrogate, wouldn't be able to carry our second child for us. We'd always had the plan that she would, but her personal circumstances changed. Her health circumstance changed. And you know when you go on these journeys, you kind of have to surrender that. And you know, as much as it hurts, because for me, when I found out we would have to unmatch, it was like all my dreams came crashing down, because you visualize this pregnancy and you visualize the same person, and then in my head, I was like, well, even though they're not all the children won't come from my womb. They'll come from the same womb. And I romanticized the whole thing, but it was out of my control, you know, and I had to let ina go, and, you know, we're still super close. And you know, she feels immensely guilty for not carrying my second child. I always say to it, you know, you never owed me a second journey. And that's taken a lot of sort of counseling of myself. You know, we sort of almost expect things once we start this journey. And I was like, I shouldn't, I never expect, you know, I expected it, but I should never have expected it, because your personal situation is your personal situation, and your family and your home life comes above mine, because that is your life, and what you're doing is a gift for me. So, you know, we unmatched. We're still in touch, and, you know, still have a great relationship. But I had to then find another surrogate, and by this time, we'd launched the podcast, the intended parent and community was still really important for me. I was still active. I still am active in surrogacy communities, and I hadn't realized how much that community had my back. So I went out onto forums again. It was an independent journey. So I went back onto the Facebook forums, and I and people have been following our journey with Amala and stuff. And I just posted on and I just said, Look, we're unexpectedly unmatched. We're looking again for a surrogate, you know. And did all of the intros that you have to do when you're in that space. And unbeknown to me, you know, a tribe of surrogates who I've been friends with for many, many years. Were like, look, is anyone looking to do a journey? Because this couple, they're brilliant, you know, and I had these ambassadors and advocates doing the work that I didn't even know they were doing until after. It makes me really emotional, because I think people often go on forums or boards and they try to meet surrogates with the view of them being their surrogate. And I think it's really underestimated how much the import the importance of having a surrogate friendship is not someone to carry your child, but someone who's just walking alongside you, who's got experience, who's got connection, who you know, even my journey with Ena, when we sort of had hit a couple of roadblocks, I turned to my surrogate friends just to get their perspective, because I don't understand the perspective of the woman carrying a child. I've never done that, and to have that sort of advisory board almost like, oh my god, am I going crazy if I think this or like, how can we overcome this and that? And yeah, it was that community that really had my back while I was at a really low point, thinking I'd never find another match again. And my second match came so quickly, I think we posted up in think it was like the August of 2019 we posted up that we were looking to go on a second journey. And by October, I was chatting to Laura. We'd had a couple of like, we're chatting, we're not chatting. I went and did a trek to the Himalayas. And so we got disconnected, and then she started talking to someone else. And I came back from the Himalayas, and she was in about to meet someone else, and I thought, Oh, my God, I've lost another surrogate. And and I remember a conversation with Laura, actually, we'd been in touch. And then I went to the Himalayas, and I came back, and she was like, Oh, I'm meeting these other IPs, and I don't want to give you false hope, because if it works out with them, I'd really happily move forward with them. And I kind of just said to her, like, I'm very spiritual. And I did say to her, like, I absolutely believe everything is destined, and if you're destined to be my surrogate, you will be, and if you're destined to be theirs, you will be. And there's no ill feeling about anyone matching elsewhere, because we were all just people trying to have babies, you know, and and we left it on a really lovely note. And then, out of nowhere, couple of weeks later, I get a message from her going, Oh, actually, their circumstances changed. They're not going to go on a journey, or they were going on a journey with someone else, and she was now unmatched, well, not even getting. Getting to know anyone. And would she like to get you know? Would I like to get to know her better? And from there, it just grew. And I was like, you know, what's meant to be is meant to be. And I know there's a triggering words in this community, in this space, but personally, I really believe in it. And so we got talking in October, we met for the first time, I think in December, yeah, December, yeah, December, just before Christmas, Laura and I met, and by January, we were matched. It was very quick, because with Ena, that whole process probably took a good 12 to 18 months of sort of getting to know and then matching before transfer with Laura, that was so condensed to less than six months. And that's not to say that that's how what I advocate, that's not, you know, it's really dependent on the relationship and the experience of the people involved. And I think because we had so many mutual friends, it was easier to get closer very quickly and to develop trust very quickly. Yeah, and Laura was a very experienced surrogate. She, she'd had multiple surrogate babies before matching with me, so there wasn't that sort of within we were all first timers, and so there was so much to learn. And you know, we really took our time, and then the second time around, we didn't need to take that amount of time. And I think anyone who does look at surrogacy, you know your match and the length of time you get to know someone is really personal to you and your personal situation and experience in in, in going on a journey, whether it's first time or second time, or, you know, even the third maybe. But we were very quick, and, you know, we'd sort I said to Laura, well, look, we were matched, and we had our embryos ready, and we were going to go to site for us for the transfer, and we had this, you know, plan of going in April 2020, and I'd said, well, if we go in April, we'll do the transfer. I'll pick somewhere lovely for us to stay, and we can just said, stay put for a couple of days. It'll be summer over there. And you know, we can just enjoy like being chilled out for a few days before coming back and enjoy the good weather. And then she, randomly, in January, said to me, do you think we could think about doing the transfer in February? Because I would prefer not to be pregnant over Christmas. And

‍

I thought, okay, fine, let's, let's do that. Because if that's important to your family, I said, we can do that. If you, you know I can do the admin of that. Absolutely, I can make it work with the clinic and everything. But obviously your cycle is the most important thing here, and you're going to have to track your cycle. And because Laura was so experienced, she knew that she she just knew her body like but she more than I know anyone that has known their body, that that woman knows her body. And so she was like, I can do everything I need to. She had, she had a team up there in Northampton, where she lived, who had supported her through previous pregnancies. So she was confident that we could make February work, and I was confident that I could make it work from an admin point of view and a clinical point of view. So we worked towards February, and then we boarded a flight to mid February, and we, you know, go to Cyprus, and had lovely few days. Actually, the one thing that I think was lovely about my second journey and doing the transfer in Cyprus is I had so much more quality time with my surrogate for the transfer period, you know, we did some sightseeing, and then we had movie nights, and it was just like hanging out on with, you know, my best friend on a girls trip. It was really, really gorgeous. And so we hung out for a little bit, and then we had our embryo transfer. And the day of the transfer, the doctor says to us, you know, we obviously, as a team, have talked about transfers and transferring one embryo versus two. And the doctor says to us, well, you know, looking at the quality of the embryo is a great quality, but you know, my advice would be, if you transfer one, I think you're probably going to have about a 60% chance of a single pregnancy, but a 40% chance of it not taking and there being no success on this round. Or we could transfer two which would increase your odds to about an 80% chance of a successful singleton pregnancy. But it does introduce the risk of a twin pregnancy, a 20% odd chance of a twin pregnancy. And as a team, we'd talked about twins, and we'd talked about how many embryos we would transfer, and Laura had carried twins before, and she was very comfortable doing that, so we decided we would transfer two. So we transferred two embryos, you know, came home a day or so later, and then, you know, before we knew it, we were in the middle of a pandemic, and borders were closing, no flights were no longer going out to Cyprus, and people were no longer having treatment in Cyprus. And you know, my April date would never, ever have happened. And so you know that one conversation about going in February literally changed the rest of my life. Yeah, so we came home, and then it was a very difficult time. We wanted to see Laura more, but we couldn't, because the UK was starting to shut down and we weren't allowed to meet. And, you know, it became quite a complex time to go through a surrogacy pregnancy. So Laura was just keeping a check on herself. Often, we'd had a conversation about when she would tell me if she was pregnant, and I said to her, you know, well, you know, I asked her me, Nina had an agreement not to pee on any sticks. But you know that she did because she could wait and do eventually, you know? That's how I found out, via a video on WhatsApp, which was beautiful, but I wasn't up. I wasn't prepared for the amount of emotion I feel at the time. So said, Laura, let's let's just wait and see. Like, don't tell me. I don't want to know just yet if it's a positive test. I want to kind of wait until we can be secure in knowing that it is a genuine positive pregnancy test. And so she must have been peeing on sticks as well and not telling me. And then eventually she sort of said to me, I'm just going to send you a photo dump of Cyprus because I've got all these friends, you know, photos on my phone. And so what she did was send me a photo dump, and the last photo was a positive pregnancy test. And, God, there's nothing, I guess. You know, if you're trying to get pregnant yourself, and you're you're peeing on sticks, and then you're seeing that sitting there waiting for the result is very different to just not having a clue to as to when that positive or negative is going to hit with you. And I hadn't actually told my family that we'd gone out for this embryo transfer. We'd kept it really quiet and close to our chest, so when we sat in I knew what we were doing, and I was sitting in my mom's living room, and these pictures came through, and this pregnancy test came, and I had to wear my best poker face, because I can't, but I can't tell her we're pregnant before I've even told Sati we're pregnant. So I was like, right, Mom, I need to go. I just need to I just got some stuff to do. I forgot. I exited the building as quickly as I could and put together a box, which I did for both pregnancy which was a bit of an announcement box for Sati, because I think, as a woman who can never, who's never going to carry her child inside of her, I wanted to compensate in some way, and I wanted to have that moment. And so what I did on each pregnancy was create a little box, and in that box I put a picture of the test, and I buy the baby's best outfit, because I had Amala on this occasion, I did a letter board that just says, I'm going to be a big sister, ready for when he came home from work. And then when he came home from work, we were both just sat there with this amazing news. And you know, those are the moments that, you know we all treasure this little, little moments that really make our lives and what they are today. And you know, there's so much I lost when I couldn't carry a baby. There's so much I wanted to do in terms of connection, in terms of my partner and I connecting to the child, in terms of the memories of my bump and him feeling the kick or whatever that we had to give up. And you know, there's so much grief associated with that. But equally, there's like these little moments of joy, which I've managed to sort of weave into our story and our journey, which, you know, they don't, they don't remove the pain of having to give up the pregnancy, but they make it a little bit easier. And so we did a few of these beautiful things. And actually, with Amala, I don't think I don't think I said on the first one, we didn't actually tell anyone we were pregnant until, well, we told our immediate family, but we didn't tell our extended family or friends until she arrived, and we invited everyone over, one by one for back to back lunches and dinner dates over a fortnight, everyone we knew came into our house, and what we did with her is everyone knew we were trying to conceive, so we would show them a picture of the baby in on, like, a baby scan picture, and they'd be like, oh, my God, you found a surrogate. That's amazing. That's amazing. And then Sati would walk in with Amala, and everyone's faces were like, what? Like, they were the best surprises. And that's what I mean about it's a bit like making lemonade out of lemons. You know, it was such painful times, but we had these beautiful moments which had just treasured memories. And so again, with the boys, we kind of, I told Sati, and then we kept it quiet for a little while, because we were so remote and detached from Laura that we needed to find a way of navigating the pregnancy ourselves before we invited other people into it. And then week around about five weeks post transfer, had a call from Laura, sorry, I'm already crying. They had a call from Laura, and she said, I'm not feeling too good. I'm in an ambulance. I've got shoulder pain, I've got cramping, and I'm really worried it's an ectopic pregnancy. And our hearts just sunk, and we thought, gosh, like we've got our hopes up. We've been thinking about this baby and completing our family, and now we're potentially going to lose the child. So she went into A&E, and they said, oh, it's too early. We can't see anything, but come back a week or so later, when you're about six to seven weeks and we can see what's going on. So she then went back, and when she went back, obviously I knew that that appointment was going on. We also weren't able to be there because of the pandemic, so I was just at home. And then she called me, and she just said, oh, are you sitting down? And I said, Yeah. She's like, are you okay? Like, this and say, yeah, everything's fine. And she goes like, don't want you to worry. But I also don't want you to swear when I tell you what I'm about to tell you. And I was like, oh gosh, she's gonna, she's gonna say it's ectopic, and, you know, we're gonna be in a horrid place. And then she literally just was like, oh, so the thing is, you're having triplets. I swore so much. I was like, How do I do anything but swear, in this moment, like I've prepared myself for the worst news, and now you're giving me insane news that I'd never expected to hear. And it was just yeah, that that phone call. It was just immense, you know, to hear that news. And then again, I was on my own. I hadn't, you know, Sati, he wasn't at home. And so I basically was like, right, what do I do with this news? I've just found out, like, having triplets, this is nuts. So I did the same thing. Made a little letter board for Sati. He got some cuddly toys, three matching toys, and, like a bigger toy to represent Amala. And just when he came home from work, I was like, Oh my goodness. And honestly, his face was a bit like what you know, to even get your head around it that you know, one child was a miracle. A second child was like, gonna be a dream come true, and then you go from one to four, and just it was mind blowing. And you know, again, it's a double edged sword, because Laura, the last thing Laura said to me is, like, you know, you need to think about what you want. And we had to really think about this, because whilst it's beautiful to think, oh yeah, triplets, that's amazing, it's really hard raising triplets, really hard. And she obviously knew that would be the case, and she wanted us to make sure that we wanted all three babies, and we also had to make sure that she was happy to carry three babies. 

‍

Amber Izzo  26:58  

I was gonna say it's a riskier pregnancy, isn't it,

‍

Kreena Dhiman  27:01  

You know, I guess twins was one thing she'd had experience of carrying twins, and that was, I guess, slightly more normal. And we were, you know, we were like, Okay, we could handle twins. When it becomes triplets. It was a whole other ball game in terms of, you know, us, our house, our affordability, you know, for the rest of their lives, Laura, her body, her ability to carry the pregnancy. And, you know, again, like we, we spent time as a team. We spent time as a couple Saturday, and I thinking, you know, this is the greatest gift we've ever been given. But it's not going to be easy. And we all say, you know, we have the background of my health here as well. Like, you know, I'm not in the best health. I have a heart condition, I've had cancer, and, you know, would I physically be able to raise three kids? It was, it was a really tough ask, and our heart said yes from the beginning, like, our hearts were like, absolutely. And then your head comes into it and think, God, can we do this? But you know, definitely our hearts ruled the decision and everything else was secondary. Like we felt that we'd been so blessed, we'd been so seen, and, you know, we're both quite religious, and we just felt that we've been so heard in in our desire to be parents that, you know, it was just rewarded three times over on this pregnancy. And so as a team, we agreed yes, we wanted to carry on with the pregnancy. Laura was like, yes, I absolutely want to. And Laura was really worried that we wouldn't want three babies and that we would ask her to reduce so it was great once we just sort of cleared that, that yes, we absolutely would like to raise all three of them if Mother Nature, you know, allows them all to go to term, or, you know, the pregnancy to go far enough for them to all survive, and she wanted to carry them. So that was, I guess, the most awkward conversation out of the way. From then on, it was just focusing on the pregnancy and how to navigate it in a pandemic as best we could, which was super tough. And so we had, you know, scans, like 12 week scans. I wasn't allowed there, because no one was allowed in the set in the room. And it was felt a little bit like I remember writing a post or something about how everyone was talking about mothers going to scans without their partners, you know, just But mom and baby only. And I was like, Well, my baby's going without mom or dad that, you know, no one's, no one's, no one's advocating for us. I was talking about this, and, you know, I'm not the there must have been other people in that situation, but it was really difficult to not be at a scam. And then by 20 weeks, Laura really pushed at the hospital to say, look, I'm not this I'm not these babies, mum and their mom needs to be in the room. And she pushed to have me there. So fortunately, I was able to travel to Northampton to be at the 20 week scan, and then in between, she would send us sort of updates from the midwife and heartbeats. And it was beautiful, but it was very different to a Marla's pregnancy. That was definitely, a degree of connection missing. And I think that I wanted the connection more knowing that they were donor conceived children. So it was, it was really, really tricky. But, you know, we got, we got up there for one visit. I think sort of we were, it was when we were allowed to do outdoor meets in the pandemic. And so we drove up to Northampton, and we met Laura in a park. We had a scan as well on the same day. And it was funny, because I realized now that Sati and I never were in the room together to see a scan because we hacked his tag team. So it was like, No, you only had one other person, one other person. So we never actually saw the boys on screen together, but we did, fortunately, have a couple of times where we did private scans and individually got to see them inside Laura's tummy. And then, you know, that was around 24 weeks, we had, like a lovely morning with Laura. And then, out of nowhere, at 30 weeks, I get a call at, I believe it was on like 3:45 in the morning, on the 23rd of August, and it's Laura, and she says, Oh, Kreena, I've gone I'm in an ambulance. I've gone into labor. I'm on my way to the hospital. So we were 10 weeks, you know, we were 10 weeks ahead of due day. We were, I think, as a team, and, you know, with the medical team as well, we were all hoping to get to 33/34 weeks and then have a planned C-section. At that point, we knew we wouldn't get to full term, obviously, with three babies, so the third the call at 30 weeks was really scary, really, really scary, because knew that they were just so premature. So Laura rang me and Sati and I jumped in the car, and sort of left Amala here with my mother in law, and we raced up the motorway to Northampton. And we got there, and they sort of said, who are you? And we said, well, we're the parents of our surrogate, who's gone into labor, and some had a C-section, or she thinks she's going to have a - Well, we kind of thought she would have a C section. But could you let us in to be with her? And I was down as a potential birth partner if Laura's other birth partner couldn't make it, and paperwork was very clear this surrogate pregnancy, and we had a lot of other stuff planned. And then they just said, No, you can't go in. And he said, why? And they still, you haven't been covid tested. We can't let you in. And I said, Oh, but neither has she, she's gone into spontaneous labor, and she's on her own. And they just said, no, no, you can't, you can't come, you can't come in. And I was like, but they're my children, well, we didn't even know they'd been born at this point, actually. So we were like, Well, is she okay? What's going on? And then there was a whole argument about who was going to be let in who wasn't. And I just, at one point said, look, I don't care, like, right now. My priorities, my children, I had also hired a phlebotomist to stem cell harvest, and I think this was because I'm someone who's had cancer, and I was like, like, what can I do to protect these little people's lives forever more, and knowing that they weren't my genetics so I would never be a donor for them if they ever needed them. Think for medical reasons, I had agreed to have a phlebotomist and a company come and harvest their stem cells. They would be kept in a bank for the future, like an insurance policy. So I said to them, even if you're not letting me in, please let the phlebotomist in their medical they've been covid tested. That's the priority right now. And they said to me, oh no, we can't, we can't, we can't do that. And I said, why? And they said, oh well, the placenta is not available. And I said, well, get it from the umbilical I don't understand what you're talking about. Like, you know, just get the stem cells from somewhere. And they said, oh no, but it's not available. And, like, she just kept saying it's not available, but what is she talking about? And so I sort of like the cog started turning, and then I looked at her, and I said, are you telling me they've been born already? And she just went, oh, did you not know? And that's how we found out that the boys had been born just in the foyer, arguing with a lady who wouldn't let us through. And you know, we cried so much at that point, and it was just heartbreaking to find out in that way after we'd been on such a journey. But that's how it panned out. And then I just said to her, look, are they are they all okay? Are they all alive? You know, what gender are they? You know, is everything fine? And she just said, I can't tell you anything else now, so, but I'm the mom, and she goes, she just looked at me. She goes, I can't tell you anything now. So she wouldn't tell us if they were okay and if they'd survived the birth. And we were... We were a wreck, an absolute wreck, in that in that hospital foyer. And we sort of held our breath, composed ourselves, and I said, So when can you do this covid test? And now it was, like, 6am and she said, well, come back at 11am and I'll swab you. And then it's eight hours after that. And I was like, hold on, that's like gonna be, I don't know, something like 12/14, more than, like, it was a ridiculous number of hours before I could potentially get in to see these children, if they existed because we didn't know that. And then she just were like, yeah, we're too busy. And I'm like, the amount of times you spent arguing with me right now you could have swabbed me. And we could be into our eight hours because there was no rapid testing at this point. And she just went, no, I'm too busy. I can't swab you come back in five hours time. What are we meant to do for five hours like our home is down in Gatwick, and she goes, Oh, there's some McDonald's over there. It's 24 hours you could go and get a coffee. And I was like, have you told anyone else who's become a mum today to just go and get a coffee? Like, no, you know. So we kind of, we had no choice though. We went to the loo, and we just sort of turned away, turned around to walk away, you know? Like, well, we literally can't do anything now. And then one of the nurses who had been there sort of was like, look, guys, I just want to come over and let you know that the babies are all born and they're all fine, and they're all in neonatal care. And I was like, thank God. Like, thank God you had the humility to come and say that to us because we didn't know. And then I said, don't tell me the gender. I'm going to wait for Laura to tell me. You know, as long as long as they're safe and they're healthy and fine and they're being looked after,

‍

that's all I need to know right now. And then, as we were sort of walking out, another nurse said, Look, guys, I'm going to just swab you now, because it's ridiculous, like, the sooner we swab you, the sooner you get your baby. So she did a swab and then sent us off for eight hours. And we thought, well, we might as well just come back to Crawley. So we drove straight back down the motorway, saw Amala, told her she was a big sister, and then waited for the Covid test results to come in. By which time Laura was awake, and she was like, guys, your results are going to be here any minute now. Just get in the car and come up the motorways. It's a ridiculous situation. So eventually we got in to see Laura, and we went in to see her first, and then she sort of, we, you know, obviously, checked in on her health. And then we let her tell us the sex of the babies. Again, that was a magical moment where she shared that news with us. And then we went up to see the boys, which was mind blowing. Three, you know, three incubators, one room, there's mess, there's gloves, there's so much separation, but then there's always also so much love. Like, as soon as we walked into that room, I was like, my god, these are my babies. These are my babies. And they were all there, and all the machines were going. And anyone who's had a baby in neonatal will know how overwhelming that time, that time and that space is, and how you'd give anything for them not to be in a box wired up to all of these machines, but there was nothing we could do apart from be there for them and be there for Laura, and that's what we did from there on in and I think the most frustrating thing for us was that obviously we had to wait for a covid test before we went into the neonatal unit, but then every day after we never were covid tested before entering the unit. And so it was just ridiculous, because we're like, well, I could have, I could have, literally, like, kissed someone with covid before I walked through the doors. You won't let me in yet. The day my boys were born, you wouldn't let me in. And then we also went on to find out that no one else was denied their birth partner. Everyone else was allowed one person at the at their birth, and no one else did it on their own, apart from Laura. And, yeah, yeah. And I have a real issue with this. You know, we were the only people having children through surrogacy. We were the only people of color. We were the only people with multiples. And you think, like, you know, I'm not stupid, like I can see bias and bias exists.

‍

Amber Izzo  38:25  

I'm so sorry that happened to you

‍

Kreena Dhiman  38:27  

Yeah, and it's, I think it's an important conversation, because we don't talk about this in, you know, in this space enough, and how experiences are different for people of color, particularly when they're going through these tragic, situations, and I guess that's why I do my work as much as I can, to make sure that people from my community see another brown girl like walking this path, because there isn't enough diversity in this space. But anyway, so we carried on, and we were in Nico for what ended up being six weeks, a large part of that in for eight weeks, six weeks in Northampton. So we packed up home in Gatwick, and we relocated up there because we couldn't possibly be at the boys bedside and be good parents to amalla with us, having, like, a two and a half hour drive between us and the children, and we wanted to be there in case there was ever an emergency. So we found a rental and we moved into that, and then, yeah, it was, it's a case of just being by the boy's bedside. And in a very odd way, I feel like, if I flip the coin and look at the NICU experience, for me, it was an extension of a pregnancy, and it was almost like my way, although they would never be inside of me. It was my way of looking after them in what would be their final trimester, in that I was the one who was feeding them. I was the one who was by their side, you know, 24/7 and I was the one who was there, you know, I was their mum before they came, before they came to full term. And I would not have had that opportunity. You know, if they didn't come early. So I guess I kind of had to just flip the lens I saw it through, because otherwise it felt super unfair in so many ways. So that was, you know, that was, that was so precious. And then we slowly had the boys sent home, well, to our local hospital. They had another couple of weeks down here, which, with itself, was like such a logistical thing to work out, because I guess people only rarely transfer three babies from one family down the motorway. And you know, in terms of the way the ambulance services worked, we had to have beds available in our local neonatal unit. And, you know, we could find one. We found one bed. And so they said, Well, we're going to transfer one. But then that meant Sati and I had to be at different sides of the country, because he had to be here. Because he had to be here with the one that was transferred down here, and I had to stay up there with the two that were up there. And then we'd have to wait for the next day to make sure we could transfer another one and then wait for another day to it. And we didn't get three days in a row. So it ended up happening over the course of a week where one baby came, then the other baby came, and then the last baby came. And it was, yeah, it was tough. It was, you know, super tough adding that complexity of moving neonatal units into the NICU experience. But you know, it gave us time with Laura. It gave us time to, you know, be with her post birth. And, you know, watch her heal. And you know, she did just amazing. She was expressing milk for us, and she came to the unit so many times, and it was really lovely to have her so close by my side throughout the whole experience of neonatal. And it definitely cemented our relationship. You know, took it to another level, which was just gorgeous. And then the boys came home, and you know, we had two weeks here to get them out of incubators into cots and really sort of stabilize their feeding and stuff and and then on the 14th of October 2020, they were discharged home to us, which is the first time we were ever together as a family, because Amala was never allowed onto neonatal units, so she had to almost wait for that two months to be up before she met her brothers again. Yeah. So it's just something you take for granted that you're you're a family. But in this situation, we couldn't get together physically for a long time. And once they were home, it was just, you know, we just, I think we all breathe the real side of relief. And I've got a video on my Instagram, which is about the boys coming home, and it's so emotional whenever I watch it back, like I just see how, you know, they came in, and then me and Sati just crying because we've wanted this for so long, and it's just the ultimate dream come true, to bring three babies home with you who are healthy and happy and vibrant. And, you know, we did have one. Arnev was on oxygen still, because he had under quite underdeveloped lungs. So I had three babies, plus an oxygen tank, plus, you know, my toddler, which was interesting to ever get around anywhere, but it was, you know, it was just, it was a miracle. We'd never seen that coming. If you told me the day I was diagnosed with cancer that, you know, however many years, seven years later, I'd be a mum of four. I would never, ever have believed you, but it happened. And you know, I have these beautiful children, the boys, you know, they're now three. They are an absolute tornado in the house, and we've just grown into this family life, which is hectic, chaotic, you know, torturous, a lot of the time, but a gift, you know, a total gift, and one that we never take for granted. You know, we sat in I always say that we're so short with the boys, and we're always biting and we're flipping out and getting cross at them, but that's because there's three of them, and it's hard work, and it's tough, it's a tough parenting gig. But you know, if nothing that came before them broke us, this is never going to break us, this is just going to test us in a different way. And I'm not going to say it's easy, because it's not. And you know, it's a very difficult type of parenthood when you four of them who are super young, but yeah, we constantly come back to the come back to how much they were wanted, how much we went through to have them. And you know, how much aligned for us to bring them to life and and just have deep, deep gratitude in that. And, yeah, you know, I'm sure there'll be many, many more ups and downs as they get older. And you know, eight years are to come exactly. Oh, my God, they got, you know, they eat us out of house and home at age three. I'm not quite sure how much they're like teenagers, but it's all part of the ride, you know. And the one thing I've learned through everything in my life is just to stop resisting it, you know. Just Just don't worry about Don't sweat it, because that doesn't help. You know that the one thing that you can always do to help yourself is accept your situation. Your circumstance, and once you've accepted it, it's so much easier to move on from it. And that comes from, you know, my cancer diagnosis, my heart failure, infertility, to being a mum of four. Like, I accept that it's not going to be perfect, and because I accept that, is so much easier to then just get on with it.

‍

Amber Izzo  45:16  

Yeah, yeah, you're honestly, I mean, your story is just truly amazing. Like there's for one person to go through so so much in realistically, such a short space of time is amazing and to come out and you just kind of you, almost like have this aura of positivity about about you, like you seem to just really kind of carry everything so well, and that, that feeling of being grateful, you can really tell that you are, and I just think it's so beautiful to see how far you've come on this journey. So I really, I can't thank you enough for sharing it with us. I think you know, there was one thing that I kind of wanted to pick up on that you mentioned, realistically right at the beginning of this episode anyway, and you'd said about when looking for a donor, about the fact that there's almost a shortage of South Asian egg donors in this this country, and it does make it a lot harder for people to therefore, go down that route, and do have to look at other options. And I mean, from your perspective, why do you think that is?

‍

Kreena Dhiman  46:23  

It's such a deep rooted question that and you know, we do a lot of work on this, but I think it ultimately comes down to it comes down to where we've come from and who we are as people. And you know, the real depth of it is hidden in colonization and the partition of India and the need for our community to perform and to be perfect and to fit into someone else's ideal. And so any sort of vulnerability was always perceived as weakness. We were never allowed to be vulnerable. So if we admit we're struggling with fertility, that's that you know you're gonna you're gonna show someone you're imperfect or invulnerable, and that's why I think there are quite there's there's a lack of people sharing infertility stories, because we don't want to put that out there, and I think that people tend to donate once they've seen the benefit of donation. So if you're not talking about infertility, and you're not looking at alternate paths to parenthood, you're not using donors, you're not going to be socializing in a space where people realize how important it is to donate for those who can't use their own eggs. So it's such a nuanced conversation. But I think it's, it's partly because we're, we're relatively closed, at the moment, to alternate paths to parenthood, and so we don't explore them from the infertile couples perspective. And then when the infertile couple doesn't explore them, people don't see the benefit of donating within the community, because they don't see the families built in that way. So we kind of need to turn that around. And where people are having donor conceived children, really talk about it and celebrate it, so people realize what a gift they would be giving to another family. It's a bit like surrogacy. Like, you know, if no one ever talked about surrogacy, people wouldn't become surrogates to help other people can complete their families. Well, it's the same with donation. If people in our community aren't talking about donor conceived children and how wonderful they are, other people aren't inspired to donate. So I think that's part of it. I definitely have so many people you know, come into my inbox saying to me that they have donors conceived children, but they've not told anyone about it. The child doesn't know about it. Their families don't know about it. That's a real problem. So, you know, we want to work to undo that. And I think, you know, if we go back to what I said about looking for this lady in South Africa who looked like me, so we would have children that look like us. And, you know, husband's Indian, and so we're both, both sets of biological parent were Indian, brown skin, black hair. You know the boys, the boys actually, and if you've seen them, they've got white, white skin. One of them's got bright blue eyes, and two of them have got green eyes. And I think I went to the ends of the earth to try and make this family that look uniform, so I would avoid some societal judgment, I think, and avoid those conversations that I knew would come up in community and but, but again, the universe had other plans for us as a family, and so we can only talk about that and celebrate that because people look at us and they're like, Oh, they've got white skin YouTube, but Brian Brown's getting what's going on, and we're and I'll happily, like, engage in conversation when I have capacity to say, well, they're donor conceived and they're still my children. And, you know, I've got a I'm writing a book at the moment, and one of the chapters is, you know, it's called, blood is blood, but love is love. And actually, like, we need to understand that love doesn't come from DNA or genetics or or even pregnancy. Like, love is so much more than that. And I think our family is just testament to that message, and that's why they've come out looking the way they have, because they're oblivious to the change you know, that they're going to make in the world and the community right now. They haven't got a clue. People just think, you know, and I will just walk around. Only I got blue eyes, I've got blue eyes. And he tells anybody who's got blue eyes. But what he doesn't realize is that actually there's a real, you know, subconscious message there, saying that families can be built in any way. And, you know, love is all that matters. And I think the more we amplify the positive stories and the stories of hope, particularly in the South Asian community, the more will change the landscape for other people going through these journeys, because sadly, I won't be the last woman to to need egg donation as a South Asian girl. So yeah, hopefully we paved the way for everyone else.

‍

Amber Izzo  50:35  

Absolutely. Kreena, thank you so much for joining us again. It's been such a pleasure. I know we did in the last episode, but for anybody who hasn't yet found you, please do let everybody know where they can find you and follow your journey from here.

‍

Kreena Dhiman  50:47  

Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram at kreenadhiman. Just my name. You can find me online at www.kreenadhiman.com or if you're looking for surrogacy specific work, it's at the intended parent, both on Instagram and then at and then theintendedparent.co.uk. Online for our podcast, our courses and other resources.

‍

Amber Izzo  51:11  

Amazing. Thank you so much, Kreena. Enjoy the rest of your day.

‍

Kreena Dhiman  51:15  

Thanks so much, lovely.

‍

Amber Izzo  51:16  

Thank you, Kreena. She is so inspiring, isn't she? I hope you love this episode as much as I love talking to her. And on that note, we will see you next week for our final episode of misconception. Series one, see you then you.

‍

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

‍