Emma Haslam  0:00  

I was just a bit like gobsmacked, and then she was like, you do know, don't you that? You know you're not gonna get a baby Emma and Adam. I knew we knew that we were happy to take on a non biological child. I just feel very passionately about that this was even an option for us. Sorry. I never cry on podcasts.

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Amber Izzo  0:18  

Hello. You are listening to Misconception, a Gaia family podcast. My name is Amber Izzo, and I am your host. Each week we release a new episode talking about the various paths to parenthood, from community stories to conversations with experts. We've got you covered. Gaia's mission is to make IVF more accessible for more people with a financial plan that allows you to start and protect your IVF and access to a community who just get it. We're here for you. You can request a free, personalized quote at gaiafamily.com this week, we are talking to Emma Haslam. You might know Emma as your IVF abroad, but this week, Emma is joining us to talk about her own fertility journey. Emma and her husband, Adam, were recipients of both donor eggs and donor sperm, which, after numerous cycles, did result in the birth of their son. Emma talked really openly about how she came to terms with the loss of genetics on both sides, how she was supported through the journey by her friends and family, and how she feels now about using anonymous donors. Let's bring her in. Emma, hello. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you?

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Emma Haslam  1:29  

I'm well. Thank you. How you doing

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Amber Izzo  1:31  

Yeah, not too bad at all. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. We were just kind of talking before we actually press record about how your story is one that people don't really talk about that often. I think in this space, we quite often hear about people who have gone through donor egg IVF, or have gone through sperm donor IVF or IUI, or have used donors in that capacity, but we very rarely hear of people who have gone through IVF and had both a sperm donor and an egg donor. So I'm going to hand the mic over to you and just kind of ask you to introduce yourself and tell your story, really, as how you came to double do. We'll call it double donation, I don't know, so we'll call it double donation of how you came to that really, and you know, I mean your story and your words. So over to you.

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Emma Haslam  2:21  

Thank you. And yes, I think you're right. I think just first off to say I completely agree that I think it's not really talked about. So I'm hoping that by talking about it, it helps people. Because there are definitely other people out there that have gone down this route. For sure, less of us than say, people who have done egg donation or sperm donation, but there's certainly lots of people that do go down the double donation route. So hello everyone. I'm Emma Haslam. My journey began. So we, I think just leading up to getting married, actually, we're a bit like, oh well, we'll casually try and we're going to get pregnant, right? Because that's kind of what you might naively think that it's going to be easy. So we got married, and the casual trying turned into, like, really trying and sucking the fun out of life. And like, about a year in, have it not working, we were like, Hmm, we need to probably go and investigate this. So we went to the GP, and it showed that there were issues on both sides. Now I did know that I had a family history of early menopause, and I am in early menopause now at 43 the joys, that's one for another podcast, isn't it? And I so yeah, went to the doctors. They referred us to gynecology, and we had some more tests at gynecology through the NHS, and they basically said, well, two, two very difficult things. One was that we would not be able to conceive naturally ever, which, even though it wasn't working, you still have that kind of hope that that might be the way. Or if I take this tablet, if I take a supplement, maybe then one day, that will happen. So that was very hard to hear, but I must admit that back then, I was very much in the mindset of it's okay, because we'll just have IVF, not knowing what IVF even was, I'll be honest, just have but you don't know what you don't know, right? And I think in some ways, that kind of lack of knowledge around the subject probably helped me get to that point, because hearing that you can't have children naturally, is obviously a massive thing. But I think I just kind of like, while it was how hard to hear that for both of us, because we were just like, oh, we'll just have IVF, we kind of like part of that. Now I'm not saying that later on that hasn't come back, and we can, you know, we can look at that later in terms of how that that made me feel. But the. Was that, and then there was, well, you can have IVF, but you've only got a three to 5% chance of it working. That was as devastating as hearing, if not maybe even more devastating than hearing that we couldn't have children naturally. Because in my head, I was like, well, if they tell us that, you know, things are really bad, we can, we can just have IVF. Then they said it's one round in this area, but you Emma, will need to go away and lose a six stone. I think it was so my BMI at the time. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I didn't even know again, that that was a thing that how they decided who could and couldn't have IVF. And while I knew that I was overweight, I didn't have any health problems, you know, no diabetes, no blood pressure issues, fitting, you know, fit and healthy otherwise. So like, that was a lot to kind of take in in one session, you can't have kids, you can't have IVF, Oh, you gotta go away lose six stone. And if you get IVF, you can have one girl, and you've got between three to 5% chance of it working. Yeah, goodness me, that was like a lot.

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Amber Izzo  6:12  

Yeah, that's a an awful lot to take in at the time. And like you say, it's hard enough being told that you're going to struggle to conceive. And like you say, no matter what you think about IVF, whether you think, you know at the time you do think it's a, let's just do IVF

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Emma Haslam  6:25  

And everyone gets pregnant from IVF, and that's not the case, isn't it, you know, sadly

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Amber Izzo  6:29  

Goodness me, oh gosh, that must have been awful.

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Emma Haslam  6:32  

Yeah, it was awful. I mean, interestingly, in the lead up to that appointment, so my husband, Adam, he had an operation to descend his testicles when he was younger. He loves me, talent, sharing the story with the world, but he knew that there been some trauma from that operation, and he was like when we were trying to conceive. Prior to this appointment, he would use things like, this is my fault. I think this is why we can't conceive. It's me. It's me, and I believe it's not yours, no one's fault. So I think in our heads, we thought they were going to come back and maybe say, perhaps there might be some male factor infertility issues. I don't know why. I'd not thought about the whole early menopause thing again. I probably didn't really understand it. It wasn't part of my world then, and as my mum, auntie and grandma had had children, naturally, I just it just didn't kind of factor in. So I know from speaking to Adam that while that was a lot to take in and very devastating news, I know from his point of view, if he was here now, he'd say the same thing that he in some ways, felt a sense of relief that it wasn't just him. And while I never would like make him feel anything was his fault, he that's how he felt about himself. And we carry a lot of guilt, don't we, and shame and things when we're going through this, and we blame ourselves for a lot of things, like, oh my goodness, I've sprayed this perfume. Is this why I'm not pregnant this month? And it can get to that really granular level, can't it? And we think it's everything. We think that it's everything that we've done wrong. It's us. So not only do we feel like our bodies are failing us, but we also feel like we must have done something wrong as well. And we then we start to blame ourselves. So for him, I think knowing that it was a two fold thing kind of helped his feelings, but the news was more devastating, if that makes sense, it was a really kind of complex mix of emotions. And while the hospital were very kind, and I love the NHS, and you know, I'm not here to bash them the the next step was like, basically, go away and lose weight, and there's no help, and you just need to go off and do it and give us a call when you've done it. And I was just like, oh, so, you know, you get all that awful news, and then, like, support of counseling, or, I don't know, help with recommendations on how to lose weight safely, because that's a lot of weight to have to lose. And I mean, I am a huge foodie, but I'm also an emotional eater, and so when you then delivered this awful amount of news, like, the first thing I wanted to do was just go and eat

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Amber Izzo  9:14  

I relate to that. 

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Emma Haslam  9:15  

I think a lot of people do. And yeah, I'm not. I've not got any shame saying that anymore, because I just think, like there's so many other people that are just the same, and it's okay. And I've been up and down with my weight, like, since I was about 13. So this is, this is a lifelong battle for me, and I understand there has to be rules. But as I've obviously got further into this and now understand that there's rules, really, I think about excluding people from treatment, rather than inclusivity and things like that. And, you know, it has the way. Has to be safe. Of course, things have to be safe, but a lot of the time people with high BMI, it is completely safe, but it's just a way of excluding people anyway. That's another topic. But we came away from that appointment like, what do we do now? We had literally. Like, Well, what do we do? In my head, that was the solution. This IVS cycle we were gonna get was the solution. And now, all of a sudden, we're told that it's very unlikely to work. You're definitely never gonna have children naturally, Emma and Adam and, oh, by the way, go and lose all this weight, and there's no support for you to do that. And all I wanted to do was eat. So it was just like, what do we do now?

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Amber Izzo  10:22  

Yeah, it's a vicious cycle, isn't it? Yeah, 100% trying to kind of figure out what to

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Emma Haslam  10:29  

100%, and really hard you might, you know, if you just say to Adam, you know, you could try losing weight as well. That might, may improve things with your with your sperm, but unlikely. So, bless him. So we came away from that appointment, like, what are we going to do? We didn't have any money. We started to look into the price of private IVF, and were shocked. We were very privileged and that we were able to move back in with my parents, but it wasn't an ideal situation. Newly wed in a small terrace house, and while I do recognize we're privileged to be able to do that and to save up, it wasn't, it wasn't ideal. And you know, we had, we had a great life, as most of us do, prior to to all of this. And suddenly the holidays stopped, going out for meals, things that we like doing, life stopped and became so boring, and everything was all encompassing around saving money for fertility treatment, which, again, I recognize as a privilege, but life just changed overnight, and I felt this overwhelming sense of responsibility in that I'm the one that has to lose this weight, like if Adam does brilliant, but it's me that has to do it. This is our only kind of chance to to do it. So by some stroke of miracle, I managed to lose the weight. And I did consider things like, you know, starving myself. And I considered weight loss like going on shakes and things like that, which is also not healthy long term, you know, this, these are the things. These are the things, though, that it kind of pushes people to the point of, doesn't it? It's okay saying go away and lose weight, but doesn't mean so that person's going to do it healthily, like, you know? So I did it, and it was hard. It was really hard. So then I rang them up, and I went back to my appointment with Adam, and we were like, right, we're here. We're ready. Can you make the referral? And they were like, actually sorry in the time that it's been, the limit in this area has changed again, so it's now BMI of 30 and not 35 and I was just like, and I think that that moment was just like, I think I'd held it together quite well up until that point. And then I just remember I was so angry in that appointment, because I felt like, and I understand that they can't do this, but I felt like, well, you could have told us you've just kind of wasted. Like, did it take two years, 18 months, to lose that way you've just, I feel like that time's been wasted, working to this arbitrary figure that wasn't real. And they were like, well, you could just go and lose another couple of stone. I was like, No, I can't. I can't go and lose another couple of stone. And at this point, to kind of put it into context, I'd never been fitter or healthy. I was like, doing it all the exercise. I was eating really well. I was like, maybe a size for 1240 I mean, I wasn't, you know, and I'm taught, yeah, so it's just like, it's, can you definitely not do it? They were like, No. And I was like, Well, I can't lose any more weight. And that, again, felt really hard to say. But Adam was like, No, you've done amazingly, and that you've even lost this weight anyway. And he lost weight along he went on the same journey as me, so that I didn't feel alone with it, which was really nice. That's nice, yeah, really nice. And it didn't improve things for his sperm, but, you know, he did it to support me, and that helped me, then to, you know, to lose the weight. And I just felt like, what a kicker. But I also felt anger around the fact that you're telling me that I've got a low AMH, you're telling me on perimenopausal you're telling us that, you know we need to get on with this, but then you've just wasted 18 months of my life, our life and my egg reserve. So I was just like, This is ridiculous. And again, it was a case of, well, you either go away and you lose that to stone and come back to us, or you have to look privately, because I knew at that point, privately, I would have options. But again, like you know, we did. We had, we had some money, money saved, but not loads of money, because we were hoping that we'd get it on the NHS. And we've kind of looked into the price in the UK, although it's really expensive. Let's start having a little bit of a life again, and we won't, we won't, don't need to save up, because I'm going to, I'm going to lose this weight, and then we're going to get an NHS treatment, so then we're back in a position again of like, oh, we haven't got the money we need either. So that was a real, that was a real low point, I'd say, on the whole thing. And I was so angry. We both were really angry, not the doctor's fault, obviously,

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Amber Izzo  15:05  

No, but angry at the system.

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Emma Haslam  15:06  

And just, yeah, and just, I worked so hard to lose that way. Oh my god, yeah, so hard. 

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Amber Izzo  15:15  

I can understand that. And I think when you when you've kind of, it's the goal post moving, isn't it? You've kind of gone through moving like this is where you think you've got to be. You do everything you need to do to get to that point, and then you walk in that room ready to go, to be told, actually, no, we've moved it, and now you have to jump through this hoop to get to there, yeah. And that is, that's what makes it so much harder. And I feel really sorry that you weren't told that, and that you weren't given the heads up that this was changing, and that the policy was changing, and all the rest. Because it does, it makes it so much harder. And when you feel like you've got a lifeline there, and then that lifeline is taken from you, it does. It opens up a whole new a whole new thing to navigate. So yeah, I am sorry that that was your your experience.

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Emma Haslam  16:02  

Doctor was, like, so apologetic. And like, I say it's not their fault is it.

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Amber Izzo  16:05  

I'm glad that you had, like, yeah.

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Emma Haslam  16:09  

But also, like, well just go and lose, come on, you can do it. You've lost six you can lose another two. Like, no, you don't understand. I can't, I can't, without resorting to drastic measures, and I didn't want, I knew that that wasn't going to be the right way.

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Amber Izzo  16:27  

It comes down to time as well. I think a lot of people say about the fact that it takes, you know, of course, it takes, to do it, to do it healthily. I think, I mean, what is it that people say? People say, Isn't it something like the recommended is like that you lose maybe two pound a week or something like that, that when you are looking at, you know, numerous stones, this is going to take a long time. This is going to take a year onwards for some people. But when you when you already have, like, a low AMH or anything like that, it does make it harder, because as much as we, you know, it's horrible to talk about, but we talk about this cliff of fertility and the ticking clock for for a female, there is a clock, and there is a point where your AMH does start dropping off, your red count does start to diminish, etc, and it does become harder to get pregnant. And so when you're already kind of around that age anyway, obviously it's different for everybody when that happens, but it is, you know, there's an average age that if AMH is already an issue, you already have a lower counter, etc, and then you are being told that you need to lose weight, and it's going to take all this time. It is just an obstacle after obstacle after obstacle. And as much as you know, you could lose that weight and then go back into the room and then say, Okay, that's great. Well done. They do an AMH test, and then your AMH is lower than what it needs to be to qualify, like, it is so difficult, isn't it, to actually, actually get to that point? 

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Emma Haslam  17:45  

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's probably when I really began, like, struggling with anxiety around I mean, I've had different, like, one off periods of anxiety in my life, but then from the kind of trying to conceive, like, I became a really anxious person. I mean, I'm not surprised, and you can see, can't you, how people's mental health is massively, the majority of us are massively impacted by this journey. And you can see, and that kind of like that rug pulling. I felt like I was on this, you know, living for the next thing, and then I was disappointed again. And then, you Yeah, I would be constantly worried then that every stage that something was going to go wrong, because that's what happened up until this, this point. So we left, and we're like, now what we're going to do still living with the parents who, I think thought they might have been getting rid of point, you know, we really wanted to go and live together like we're newlyweds, do you want to live with your parents?

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Amber Izzo  18:39  

No

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Emma Haslam  18:41  

Absolutely not what we wanted.

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Amber Izzo  18:44  

That's not the honeymoon phase.

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Emma Haslam  18:46  

Not the honeymoon phase, yeah? And that's the thing, like, we didn't have that honeymoon phase that was just like, No, sucked up. Like, this horrible period of time, yeah? And you spend so many, you know, spent so many years trying not to get pregnant, and then, you know, probably didn't need to do that, because it wasn't going to happen anyway. But yeah, so we, we went kind of away from that appointment, and we were like, right, what are we going to do? So we're like, really, it's going to have to be private. IVF, again, not really realizing too much about, like, costs. We just had a little bit of a look, and we had some consultations with some clinics in the UK, and I'm not here to bash clinics in the UK, but our experience wasn't great across those three clinics. We found it very, very difficult to just get transparent costings from them, like I just wanted to know I was on I understood at that point that it depends on your treatment plan, following consultation, what the costs are going to be. That makes sense to me. But why can't you just give me the what's included in your IVF with ixo package, and what's not and out of things that are not included, how much are they and is there anything else we'd like to need, and how much does that cost? Please? Like doing what I do now for a living, I know that that's not difficult. It shouldn't be difficult. It was so difficult. And one of the clinics we paid for quite an expensive consultation, I would say, I'm not sure that even really looked at the notes before we went in, and then when we got the costings, we couldn't afford to use them anyway. So if I'd have known upfront, like an idea, we wouldn't have spent 300 pounds or whatever it was on a flip in consultation. So we spent quite a lot on consultations, only to not really feel like we'd found the clinic. They were all in agreement that we had very little chance of it working. But nobody mentioned donor conception tools, which is very interesting, so I don't know why. I mean, I didn't even know it was a thing. So we came away from that thinking, Are we really going to spend all that money on one go? Like, if we get this money together, we can probably get enough money together living with my parents for one cycle, but then it's probably not going to work if we've got three to 5% chance. So we're really going to spend all that money. And then you're at that kind of crossroads. Then what you know, do we do this? Do we not and it just it. We just hadn't found the one. We haven't found the right partner clinic. So we're like, now what we're going to do, but we began looking into adoption. I mean, that wasn't a great, a great process, even the kind of BMI thing factored into that. My BMI was a lot, yeah, we I mean, maybe it was just that social worker on that day in that meeting, but we were like, right, we're going to adopt. That's what we're going to do. And we looked into it all. And at the time, I worked for the Children and Family Service, so in lots of ways, tick a lot of boxes because of that background.

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Amber Izzo  21:54  

Yeah

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Emma Haslam  21:57  

But when we went for the appointment, it felt very much like and I like, I understand there's a, there's a full process you have to go to, which is a very difficult process. And it's, yeah, sounds first meeting, yeah, there's a lot, yeah, there's a lot. It's like a first meeting. And I felt like she was really grilling us. And she said, you know, have you ever had any mental health issues? I was like, What? What do you what do you mean by that, exactly? And she's like, well, anxiety, depression. I was like, well, well, you know, some anxiety since sort of trying to conceive, right? Okay, but it's very handling away as if that was, like a real negative, like a negative. And I was like, oh god. I mean, we didn't talk about mental health then, like you do now. And then she was like, Can I ask what your BMI is? And I was like, 37 whatever it was. And she was like, right, okay, well, I will have to go and speak to my manager to see if you're allowed to apply. I was like, Really, and she said, Because of your anxiety and because of your BMI. And like, when she said, My anxiety, I was like, fully functioning, but I was taking whatever for it at the time, and because of my BMI and that, and I was just a bit like, gobsmacked. And then she was like, you do know, don't you that? You know, you're not going to get a baby Emma and Adam. We would be looking at multiples with with, you know, significant needs. Would that be okay? We were a bit like, we've not kind of got to that we, you know, we were hoping for a baby, and we would ideally want, you know, one. And, you know, that's something we'd have to think about. Like, we've not got to that point. So off she goes out the room to go and get permission from a manager. And Adam and I looked at each and were like, We don't want to adopt. He was like, I don't want to adopt. And it just was, but again, like, just such a like, it was so weird, and it just made me feel really awful about myself, because I was like, gosh, they don't even think that I'm a good candidate for, you know, to adopt children. And it just pulls...

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Amber Izzo  23:52  

That's such a shame that you've, you'd obviously gone into that and had that in your head, that that was kind of the route that you were looking at going down, and it could have been an amazing route. But that exactly, first initial meeting, put you off, yeah, for life, such a shame. 

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Emma Haslam  24:06  

Yeah, this is what you need to do to get your form filled in, to get a form from you to apply. Then I'm not, I'm not playing, because it's going to be a really, you know, difficult process. And when we then reflected as well, I mean, we did say that in the meeting, but had we have, you know, had she said there are babies and you could probably, or you could get a young child, and you could get one, and was a bit kinder, then we probably would have gone down that route. But we were just like, that's a definite no from me. And Adam was like, it's a no from me. But then we were about to be like, ah, what are we actually going to do? Do we just stop now? Do we just say that's it? But as you know, if it just felt like we've not even actually been given a shot, like at all, so we considered, do we stop and not even you know, because we were just like, This is no life. This is rubbish. But anyway, I. Can't remember what made me start to look at going abroad. All I can think is, I've done quite a bit of traveling. So prior to meeting Adam, like we'd had like two dates, and then I went off on a round the world trip by myself that he ended up coming to join me on a few months in. But I've done quite a bit of this kind of stuff by myself. So I got to see different parts of the world, and I got to and I got to see that actually, the UK is not necessarily the best at everything, and why not somewhere else? And one of the things that stood out, I think I must have found my searches. They must have come up, you know, in like my Google. And I must have seen a clinic in the different countries, targeted ads, targeted ads and have a quick look at that. While I didn't know it was an option, I wasn't, as soon as I saw it, I was like, Okay, maybe this could work, because the first thing that I saw was the staggering cost differences, and I thought, well, you know, a lot of them are offering free consultations. Why don't we have a look at it, get some more opinions, and just see. And maybe we could stretch our one go financially to two, you know, and maybe that, maybe then that would result in something different. So I began to kind of do some research, which I must admit, I found very hard. I think when you're looking at different countries, it's like, is this going to be safe? Is this okay? And I didn't really know what I was doing, I'll be honest, but at this point, we are desperate people, and while I'm delighted we did go abroad, obviously it was a bit of a like this is kind of like the last thing we can think of, and then we're gonna have to just stop, because I carry on like this. So ended up having some consultations with some clinics abroad, just found the whole thing so different to our experience of the UK clinics. It was so much easier just to get costings out of them. I just felt like we weren't a number. It felt very personalized. A lot of them, as I said, were free to speak to so we weren't losing anything. And all three of them said to us, it's not going to we don't think it's going to work using your eggs and sperm. If that's what you want to do, we will support you. But all three of them said that, which I think's really interesting, that the UK clinics didn't say that, and that made me then a bit like, were they just trying to get our money? I don't know anyway, so I was a bit like thinking, Oh, great, I'm being delivered even more, even more bad news. And I wasn't like, I say I wasn't aware about of donation at that point. So all three of them talked to us about the option of double donation. Who knew that was a thing. And I was like, wow, that's That's amazing. Now I know for some people, being told you need double donation is again, a huge thing, and I'm not minimizing it. It was a big thing. But I think honestly, for us at that point, having explored adoption, having kind of been through everything that we had been through, I knew, we knew that we were happy to take on a non biological child, but I really also wanted to carry a child. And while I didn't like I say, Well, I didn't know about donation per se, the fact we've been considering adoption shows that that was in our psyche, and that's what we've been thinking about, and I just so desperately wanted to become a mum and Adam a dad, for someone to sit there and say, and be like, very honest about the kind of chances with our own egg and sperm, and be willing to support us through treatment. Should we want to do that? But then saying we don't think that's going to work, we don't need to waste your money nice. And actually, there's this option, and if suddenly our chances go from like, well, they think, they think it wasn't going to work, so closer to zero, up to kind of, I think they said between 60 and 70% and I was like, oh my god, that's amazing, not understanding anything about anything at that point, but that's just, you know, somebody saying something like hopeful and giving us solutions rather than problems all the time. And the price for double donation as well was really like within budget. So we knew we'd have multiple be able to pull attempts. There's things like guarantees offered. So all of a sudden it became like, actually, do you know, what if we go down this route, maybe this actually going to work? Like looking at the numbers, looking at the percentage chances, you know, the phrase that one of the consultants used was like, there's nothing wrong with your oven. Emma, thank you very much. It's, you know, it's the egg and sperm issue, and my BMI, BMI wasn't a problem. And, you know, very quickly we had a plan and some positivity and some hope. For the first time in. what felt like a long time. 

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Amber Izzo  30:04  

Amazing. I mean, I think that's, you know, like you say, for it was the kind of the positivity and the hope that you finally had, and you were finally getting somebody sitting there going, we can help you. And this is the way that you need to go. And, like you say, for a lot of people, there is, you know, I do think for some people, when it comes to kind of donors, they're at that point where things haven't been going well for them. They've gone through one or two cycles, maybe even more, and they have kind of had disappointment after disappointment after disappointment, similarly to you, but like I say, they've already gone through the treatment process. And it's another added cost when you're going through it with donors, etc. And people really feel that genetic loss, whereas, like you say, because you'd already kind of gone down that route of looking at adoption, you were already, you'd already kind of opened yourself up to it in some ways. And I mean, so from there on in like, how does it How does it work? Because I've heard of that embryo donation, where somebody's perhaps fertilized embryos, they've decided not to use them, and therefore they've donated them to another couple. But so was that the case with you? Was it embryo donation, or were you able to like when you have donor treatment, whether it's egg or sperm on their own, you can go to like the egg bank or the sperm bank, and you can go through profiles, and you can pick the donors. Of you can pick the sperm donor, you can pick the egg donor. So did you get to do that with both or did you have to do it differently? And was it an already fertilized embryo? I'm really interested.

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Emma Haslam  31:33  

So many options, and it also depends on the laws of that country. So all those options exist as you've just, as you've just said. So for us, it was an already fertilized embryo, which amazing is also very, very much cheaps the wrong word, but like the most cost effective way to have egg and sperm donation, okay, so and we were given guarantee, a guarantee that if I wasn't pregnant and get to a 12 week scan by my after my second cycle, the third one was free. So pay for I did. It did take three cycles, pre transfers. Sorry, I had four cycles. One didn't get to transfer. It did take three but the third one we've been paid for. So just pay for medication. And medication on a double donation cycle is like a frozen embryo transfer cycle. So it's much, much cheaper than doing a fresh round. I mean, even if it'd have gone down the if it had gone down the fresh route with the, when I say live, as in real time, you know donor or donors, that would still have been like, significantly cheaper than in the, you know, here, so and, you know, the whole kind of picking thing, it depends, again, on the rules of the country where you're looking to go, in terms of how they do that. Is it anonymous? Is it non anonymous? What information are they allowed to give? Not give? Who gets that information like it's a massive, massive subject, which I didn't know anything about that at that point. Obviously I do now, and that's a real minefield for people. And I do think it's important that people understand that side of things before they go ahead and do it, because you want to make informed decisions, really. But we did look for help, and there wasn't any, so we would just have to kind of fudge it ourselves. And not that I regret any of our decisions, but we just didn't know what Earth we were doing, and, you know, didn't really know if it was safe properly, if I'm honest, and it is a complete minefield. Like, yeah, there's no one straight answer. That's the problem, but there are lots of options around it. And for us, it was a donated embryo.

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Amber Izzo  33:51  

Yeah, that's so interesting. I think it is because I imagine that some people are like, you know, I know that I've spoken to people in the past who have had, like, either egg or spam donation, and they've wanted, although it's been anonymous, they're able to see certain characteristics and they want those, or the clinic, are able to look at certain even not able to see the Yes, anonymous the clinic and the characteristics. So I imagine for some people that do double donation, they can try and find a spam donor that has, you know, characteristics very similar to the Oh yeah, etc. And same with the female. But it is super interesting. And I think it's, you know, it's amazing that people do it really. Obviously, some people will go through IVF and it be successful, but they've got embryos in the freezer that they don't want to just discard or donate to research. So they donate to another couple. And I think it's so interesting that people, people do it, and such a great thing that people do, because it helps, you know, so many people like yourself. And I mean, once you'd kind of done that, I figured, you know, you did say, of course, it was successful. You now have your son. What was that process? Kind of talking to your you. Talking to your family or your friends and explaining to them what it was that you were going through. What was that process like? How how much support did you get with you know that that part of your journey?

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Emma Haslam  35:12  

Yeah, and just before I answer that, just, I just want to just make it really clear as well, there's another, another option. So there is the embryo adoption route, where people donate their remaining embryos. But then in certain places, you can also have embryos that are created from donors. So ours wasn't left over from somebody, oh, ours was from two donors, and they create the embryo. 

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Amber Izzo  35:38  

Ah, okay, so, but you don't pick you don't pick the donor,

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Emma Haslam  35:41  

No, but again, depending on where people go. So like, there are certain countries that let you see pictures of the donors and things like that, ethically, that's something that people need to consider. Because that's not then considering what you look like necessarily. It might be for some people, but what you can potentially get into the realms of is a designer baby, kind of, typically, a lot of places, it's illegal to work like that, by the way, a lot of places, okay, will ask you to complete forms on your you know, hair color, skin color, eye Color, weight, height, and then get a picture of yourself and your partner, so that they're using that to match you to the per the people on the database most like you. Yeah, because that is really important. And the research that I've seen shows that any children bond as a result of donation, it's in their best interest to look like, you know, the family that they're born into. That said, though, yeah, of course, with genetics, we, you know, think about people having children biologically, you can still end up looking like Uncle Fred, your child. Can you know that? Oh, there's no guarantees, even if you're having a biological child, but at least it's, you know, within that kind of, within that family, or if you're a person of color and you know, that kind of thing. So, you know, there's, there's evidence to suggest that that's a good approach. And a lot of good clinics, that is the way that they work. Some of them also use, like software to help with that as well, to really kind of analyze things like face shape and things like that. And then the amount of information you get depends on whether it's you're having anonymous or non anonymous donation as well. So there's, yeah, it's a big subject that works in very, you know, very many ways, depending where you're going. This is what I mean about you need to kind of understand what it is you're looking for, and then go to the right. 

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Amber Izzo  37:41  

Yeah, of course sounds and it, yeah, it sounds complex. 

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Emma Haslam  37:44  

So for us, we filled out those forms, gave them the pictures, and then they go and they come back and they tell you, we have this. You know, these two people, here's the information on the donors, the the information they give you, again, depends on what kind of donation you have been anonymous or not, and also the rules in that country around anonymity, for example, in terms of how much to give you, and that varies based on the country too, right? So in terms of, back to your question, but just want to make sure that was clear everyone to think that it was, it was always, you know, leftover cycle.

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Amber Izzo  38:20  

So, no, that's really, really good to know. Yeah,

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Emma Haslam  38:22  

With my family, and also with double donation, you can do fresh rounds as well, where it's done in kind of real time, along with your cycle, and then the embryos that you create more embryos. So it's a bit like doing a fresh cycle, but with donors, yeah, in other words, fascinating. It's fascinating. Um, so with my family, do you know what it was? They were all really cool, like instantly cool. There was not even a moment's flicker behind the eyes of anything apart from delight act that this could actually be something that actually ends up happening for us, even, like, you know, grandmas and granddads, who you think they can think about this, yeah, like, so supportive. It was, yeah, it was just like, it was even really dissected or talked about a lot. And I'm not minimizing anybody who's listening to this, who might really be struggling around that loss of genetics, or might have family members who are struggling, because I know it's different for everybody. I mean, I do get people like me that come to me who are just like, that's not a big problem for us. Other people, it's really agonizing thing, and it's a process I've got to go through. And some people get there and they go forward for it, and some people it's not right for them. And some people's family members really struggle, and that's really hard for those people going through this. 

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Amber Izzo  39:45  

It just goes to show, though, that everybody's journey is so unique, isn't it? Like everyone's journey is their own. And although there are, you know, there's a set of there's lots of studies that show that there are almost like a set category of feelings that most people on this journey will feel. Or, you know, we we've all seen the statistics from like fertility network about how many people experience depression, anxiety, the amount of people that experience suicidal thoughts, and so on and so forth. But I think although those are, you know, there's a lot of feelings that are very common within the community. It's not that way for everyone, and that's absolutely okay too. Like it's really okay to not feel that grief and to be completely okay with the journey, like everything is so unique, and it's your personal journey that I don't think you need to kind of apologize.

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Emma Haslam  40:33  

I think you know does that doesn't mean to say I never think about it. No, of course, it doesn't. I feel very differently now he's here. I had a little boy, by the way, versus how I did before. You know, it feels it feels less heavy now. Even though it didn't feel particularly heavy, it feels even less heavy now. But I still have thoughts of, I mean, he knows, and he's known in an age appropriate way since he's been about three, but he's still only just, you know, nearly six. So I'm not naive to think that there might be challenges in the future around it. However, people have challenges with their children and within families that are biological, right? And I just refuse to give my energy and time to crucify myself over something that ultimately was just to create a family that I love so much, and oh yeah, you know. And I don't got me upset, but I just feel very passionately about that this was even an option for us. Sorry. I never cry on podcasts. I just Yeah. I'm just so thankful that that was even an option. And so I refuse to kind of spend time like feeling bad now, because I felt so, so bad, yeah, not about going through a donation, but just so bad about myself to the whole journey. So yeah, and if we hadn't gone down that route, we wouldn't have a baby, because we don't have money. And you know, of course, that gave us chance to be parents. And I'm so thankful that we that we did it, and whatever happens with Alba, you know, we will support him just like we will support him with any challenges, biological or not. And he's and he's so like us. You know, the epigenetics thing, obviously, is fascinating, and he does look very like us. And I'm not saying that in a deluded way. You definitely wouldn't look at him and know if he didn't know. And you know, for us, that was the only way that we were going to get to become parents. I mean, we briefly looked at surrogate sealed I didn't quite realize that it relied on my eggs. So that wouldn't have worked anyway, but the cost huge. Like, yeah, more money than we would ever, ever have. So I just Yeah, I kind of, I can't live like that anymore, so I choose to just kind of, this is my family, isn't it, so this is just normal for us. And so I don't very often, but like I said, not naive to think that there may be challenges, but we'll have to tackle that when it comes equally. Might be like whatever. I mean, there are, you know, lots of donor conceived people that because they know how they came to be and were supported by the parents are absolutely fine with that. You know, you just gotta, you just do the best with what you've got, don't you? And, yeah, wonderful option for people that perhaps there are no other options. And I genuinely, and I've said this year before on on the podcast, I would not change the journey now, because he wouldn't be him. Would he? He'd be somebody else. And I can't imagine him being something absolutely so while it was 100% so while I would have liked it to have been easier to get pregnant, and I would like a more simple story for him. Of course, I'm also like, well, if it was different, then it wouldn't be him. I wouldn't have him. So yeah, that, yeah. So in my mind, I'm like, Well, I wouldn't want that to be to be different. What's quite nice? In our kind of close friendship group, I have some friends of a same sex female couple. They've got a little girl through IVF with sperm donation. So within his work already, there's somebody a bit like him, I suppose. Yeah, which is, which is quite nice. And we chose, obviously to be very open and honest about it, because I felt, and I know it's not always easy for people to do that. It's not always easy for me to do that, but I just feel that it's something that it should not to be ashamed of. And some of my clients choose not to tell their children that's obviously completely up to them. That's not for me to say, but I do know that from the evidence. Again, it's it proves that if they know, because if they find out later, which you know, there's no guarantee that people can't find out anyway, With advancements in DNA, or even for people who've had anonymous donation, that's a possibility, you know, the evidence suggests, if you tell them...,

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 So, you know, and if they ever needed a blood transfusion, that kind of thing, that's it's important to make not to tell them as well. But, like I say, that's not my that's up to every family's I've got to do what's right for them. But I think a lot of people decide not to because of, maybe the worries that of what all the people are going to think, which is also is really hard. And I get that. I do understand that. And in a lot of ways it is so much easier for me just to and us just to have said because, you know, in some ways you feel like you're protecting Alby as well, because he then doesn't need to know about any of this. Or I'll be conflicted, but at the same time, I believe that, you know, he's got a right to know that. So that's what we you know, that's never to be what we decided to do. Yeah? So, yeah, we had three rounds. Well, four rounds. One didn't get to transfer because I had an ovarian cyst, annoying. But then on our third attempt, it did work. I became pregnant with twins. Sadly, lost albiz twin at 10 weeks pregnant, and then had had Alby nearly six years ago. So yeah, it's been a journey, as they say, don't they? You could find another word for journey? Yes,

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Amber Izzo  46:18  

I know the word journey is one that I'm really, like, I'm really conflicted with because I'm like, it is absolutely been a journey. Like, the last 10 years have been a journey. But also, I say the word journey, and I feel like I'm stood on that. Like, you know, yeah, absolutely. I feel like I'm being judged by Simon Cowell and all the rest. But it's, yeah, it's a really, a really interesting word is used for everything, isn't it? So it almost diminishes it, I think. But that's just a personal opinion, like, yeah,

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Emma Haslam  46:50  

and it does a journey at the end of the day, it is a journey. And I use it all the time because I can't think of a better substitute. And, you know,

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Amber Izzo  46:57  

There's no, there is no other word.

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We need to coin a whole new word. We'll put our heads together and we'll get back into the dictionary. Yeah, we'll get Susie Dent a call.

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Emma Haslam  47:07  

Yeah, yeah.

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Amber Izzo  47:10  

I love it. Um, thank you, Emma, so so much for joining us and for sharing your story with us. I really appreciate it. And like I say, I think it is something that isn't as openly spoken about in the fertility community. So thank you for using your voice to kind of open that conversation and have that conversation. It'd be really great if you could tell everybody where they can find you. I know that obviously now you have used your journey to help other people. So just kind of, yeah, if you could just kind of tell us what you do, where people can find you, that'd be great, sure.

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Emma Haslam  47:40  

Yeah. So after having our son, so back in 2018 in 2019 I began a company called Your IVF abroad. So I help people globally to navigate fertility treatment in Europe, to make informed decisions to be able to access treatment that is more affordable, more accessible and more supported, and to give them the information that I wish and the support that we really wish that we had and could not find so completely impartial. Don't take any kind of commission from clinics and help with all sorts really. So it can be from like a call to kind of help people who feel a bit stuck with this, or trying to work out if going abroad right for them. I've got a course that people can do, like a self paced course, to understand what they need to do to go ahead and do this safely, and again, being informed through to one to one work where I can help people find the right clinic that meets their needs, help them prepare for consultations with the right tests what to ask, through to supporting people through their treatment, both practically and emotionally, to help with the logistical side of things and just being there for them. Because obviously I understand this, you know, and I've formed collaborations with clinics. I now know what to ask. I now understand the donor conception thing. And it is, it's still a subject that I have to be constantly on top of to kind of, like, understand, and probably I'd say, like, maybe 40% of my clients a donation. So it's, you know, it's a lot of people are kind of going down that route. So, yeah, I help with all sorts, really, but it's primarily in in Europe, but I can work with people all over the world. And I've got clients in the US. I've had clients in, you know, Canada, all over the place, UK. It's amazing. I love it, and I feel really privileged that I get to be able to do this using my experiences and now the experiences all those other people that have helped to grow their families. So you can find me. If you're on Instagram, I'm at your IVF abroad. My website is your IVF abroad.co.uk, and if you are interested in or thinking about donation, which I'm thinking, you probably are, if you're listening to this episode of this podcast, then I've got a. Free short guide to the seven things that you need to know before considering donation egg sperm, both abroad, so that you've got that information before you take any next step. So I will send Amber The link for that, for the show notes, so you can grab a copy of that. But you know, my DMs are open. Come and say hi if you're on Instagram, you know. And there's lots of ways that I can help you. And I work with a lot of people who come in. They book a pick your brain call. They just want to kind of say, right, let's talk about our situation. Let's talk about donation. Can you help us to understand the options abroad so that they can work out if it's right for them or not?

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Amber Izzo  50:41  

Yeah? Amazing. Thanks so much, Emma. Really appreciate having you on so thank you for joining us, and yeah,

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Emma Haslam  50:48  

We'll catch up soon. Thank you,

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Amber Izzo  50:51  

Emma Haslam, everyone. I have so much love and time for Emma, and I'm so grateful for choosing to join us to share her story. She is a fantastic woman, and we love speaking to her this week. But with that comes the end of series one of misconception. So thank you to all of you listeners for tuning in every week and listening to the stories of the fertility community. We really hope it's been so valuable for you. Please do remember to rate the podcast wherever you're listening to it, and we will be back soon for another series of Misconception. But until then, you can follow us on Instagram at Gaia family official as well as TikTok. You can check out our website and request a quote at Gaiafamily.com and we will see you soon for another series. So goodbye for now. Bye.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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