Speaker 1  0:00  

I had no idea what that kind of experience was like, so it was really difficult as well to watch you go through something like that and just be able to do absolutely nothing. So it was a constant, wanting to give you space, but not wanting to give you so much that you felt alone. 

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Amber Izzo  0:12  

Hello, you are listening to misconception, a Gaia family podcast. My name is Amber Izzo and I am your host. Each week, we release a new episode talking about the various paths to parenthood, from community stories to conversations with experts. We've got you covered. Gaia's mission is to make IVF more accessible for more people with a financial plan that allows you to start and protect your IVF and access to a community who just get it. We're here for you. You can request a free, personalized quote at gaiafamily.com This week is a bit of a different episode in that this person hasn't got their own fertility story to share, but this person is Beci Piggott. We haven't divulged too much into my own fertility journey on this podcast as of yet. But for context, I was trying to conceive for seven years. I was diagnosed with polycystic ovary syndrome and blocked fallopian tubes, which I then had removed. My husband had a level of male factor in fertility, and for us, the only way that we could conceive was through IVF. I had three fresh cycles of IVF across two different clinics, and by my side through all of it was my best friend Beci. We often talk in the fertility community about things we wish our friends and family would do, but rarely do we hold the space for those people to talk about things from their perspective, and how it feels watching someone you love go through a tremendously hard time in their life. And so today we're speaking to my best friend, talking about how she navigated my fertility journey. I always love speaking to Beci, but this was the very first time we had actually sat down and spoken about the impact it had on her. For me, this is a truly special and personal episode, so let's bring her in. Hello. Hello. How are you? This is very strange, I think, yeah, I don't think, I mean, we said before we started recording, I don't think I've ever actually spoken to you over a video call. So this is all very new and very alien to us. But Hello. Thank you Becky, very much for joining us. You are a different guest to any kind of guest we've had before, for many reasons we'll get into but if you could kind of just tell our listeners a little bit about you really and how fabulous you are.

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Beci Piggott  2:33  

Oh, no, pressure. Yeah. I'm Beci, for work, I'm the diversity and inclusion manager at a construction company, and then the rest of the time, I do a million other things, never sleep, do a lot of theater stuff, and more importantly, I'm your pal and you're my pal.

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Amber Izzo  2:51  

You are my pal in real life. You are my best pal in real life, which is why you're here, really, because I think we speak, you know, we share a lot of stories of people who are going through IVF, or perhaps help people that are going through IVF or trying to conceive, whether they're nutritionists or embryologists or, like we say, just people in the community. But I think it's very, very rare that we hear from the people who are almost like the collateral in that I suppose, like the people who are on the outskirts and are watching friends, family, loved ones, in whatever capacity, go through this entire journey. And so it's really interesting, I think, to actually speak to you about it. And I don't think it's ever really a conversation that we've had as such. I mean, we have, in some capacity, but not have a like a proper conversation, just dedicated to it. So yeah, I think it will be really interesting, actually to talk to you. But when we met, so we've been friends now, 8 or 9 years, maybe I don't know around then, but when we first met, it was kind of very quickly after that, that everything then started for me. So we met, for those of you that like, don't know, Beci and I met at work. So I mean, from your perspective, what was it like when we met?

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Beci Piggott  4:09  

Brilliant so I was a newbie at our old, old, old place of work training. I think they thought this would be a brilliant pair. And then about two days in, thought may have been a mistake, too similar, very loud. So, yeah, Amber was training me, and immediately, I think it's probably like three days in, we were like, oh, we're best friends. Immediate best friends. And then, yeah, went to I used to spend, like, every day and night at your house. We spent many a sleepover and then a manic rush to work in the morning where we would forgot that we had real jobs. And so I think we got into that kind of, like sharing and opening up about stuff really quickly. So like you say, it was quite kind of early on in our friendship that your whole kind of IVF journey and all of your kind of infertility diagnosis, all of that started, and so it was a lot very quickly, of us just going, here's my entire life and feelings, cool, here's mine. But I think it was a very solid foundation, clearly, because we're still obsessed with each other now, yeah.

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Amber Izzo  5:14  

I seem to remember that I literally think I passed my driving test maybe two days after you started, and that's like, I'll pick you up every day now. And, yeah, I think you stayed at my house like three days in. It was amazing. 

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Beci Piggott  5:25  

In your car, little trip out.

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Amber Izzo  5:32  

Nearly killing you every day. Yeah. And I suppose it's quite clear that it was very solid. But I think, you know, just for context, I think I met Beci in the April, got engaged in maybe the September, and you were my bridesmaid. So it was very, very, very quick, very intense. And I think within the I mean, I think I'd already start, I think I'd already come off the pill when I'd met you. So I think the conversation of me wanting to have a baby came up quite quickly. And I think there we're very different. I mean, you've been quite open about the fact that, you know you absolutely do not want children like that is not part of your life at all. So, I mean, from that perspective me, I think if we go right back to then, like before I even had any issues diagnosed, because I think there were a couple of years before I was diagnosed with anything. What was that like, I suppose, going through that, listening to me bang on about trying and wanting a baby, and you're like, you know, get these things away from me. Like, I absolutely do not want that in my life. 

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Beci Piggott  6:32  

It's interesting, because I don't want my own kids, but I love other people's as you know, because I'm absolutely obsessed with Joey and everything he ever does. So I was, I'm always very excited when my friends say that they want to have kids. They want to have kids, because then it means that they are in my life, and I get to, like, watch them grow up, but then I get to go home to my home. So in that sense, it was exciting because I was, like, amazing another kid, but yeah, trying to kind of put myself in the shoes of somebody who really wants children, especially as much as, like, you wanted kids so bad, and it was so polar opposite to how I felt, that it's exciting, but it's just completely foreign to me. So I think that then means when I'm trying to kind of relate, especially then, to the rest of the journey that's a little bit difficult, but in a way, it almost helps, I think, because it's so separate that none of my own stuff comes into it. Because I'm not also trying to have a baby. I'm not also kind of doing my family planning. So when we're chatting about it, that's all about you, and then when we're talking about my stuff, that's all about me. So it meant I can just kind of focus on supporting you 100% and cheering you on in your kind of journey, and you trying to conceive without having any of my own stuff coming into that.

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Amber Izzo  7:39  

I think, I mean, from my perspective, I think we, although you kind of knew we were trying, I don't think really it became a thing that we would speak about in any more depth, if you like, until I got the diagnosis, which was about two and a half years after we met. And I mean, I don't feel like I need to say how dark of a time that was for me when I first got that diagnosis. But, I mean, I imagine, from your perspective, it it was quite different. Because I don't think, I mean, I don't really think, like we'd spoken about mental health in general, for a variety of different reasons, but I don't think I'd ever really, I mean, I'd never experienced feelings like that before, so it was really different. I think then going in to have this operation that we thought was ultimately going to give me all the answers that I needed. And I thought I was going to come out of there, and it was just going to be, yeah, we're going to do ovulation induction, and off we go. But actually, I was told that obviously I was absolutely infertile and cannot have children without IVF. And from that point, I spiraled. I my mental health dived. I was suicidal. As you know, it was a, I would say the six months following that diagnosis were a really dark time for me. So from like, I feel like every question is then, so how was that for you? But ultimately, going through that as my friend and my best friend, really, at the time, at that time, like, how, how did you navigate that?

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Beci Piggott  8:59  

Yeah, it was hard. I think, like you said, we didn't really talk about that kind of trying to conceive bit in detail, because also you don't necessarily it's a very kind of private, personal thing when you're trying to conceive. We always speak about what your kid would be like and what they would be called, and how you would be as a mum. So you speak about that kind of real future thing, and then suddenly, like you say, when all of this happened and you went through that really difficult time. It all kind of comes crashing down to the real present, because you're no longer kind of talking about all these, like, lovely future things, and like, when my kids four, I think they're going to do this, and for their 10th birthday, if I'm going to do this, it was you're struggling right now. You're going through something really difficult. So all of my focus was just on kind of getting you through that, but at the same time knowing that I didn't understand what you were going through kind of a talk, because I had no personal experience of that. So all I could do where I had personal experience of mental health in other ways, was kind of apply that and be like, right? Well, when I've been in a dark place, granted, it's not been for the same reason, but this is what I need. This is how I needed. My friends to be I needed them to ask me what I needed. If I wanted their support? Did I want a shoulder crown? Did I want them to leave me alone for a bit and just check in every few days to make sure I was okay and just kind of go by you? Because there was nothing that I was going to be able to say that would fix it for one but there was no kind of information or insight I was going to give you, to help you, because I didn't know I wasn't an expert in any of that stuff. I didn't know anything at all. Now I do a bit, but I had no idea what that kind of experience was like. So it was really difficult as well to watch you go through something like that and just be able to do absolutely nothing at all. Because I'm quite like, a practical person as well. Like, if you had a problem in life, I like to be like, Okay, well, why don't you try this and then do this and do you try this and then do this and do that? And there was nothing like I couldn't do any of that. All I could do was kind of be there for you with chocolate and tea and cuddles, and that was basically my lot. So it was really, really difficult. But then I think was also kind of amazing them, watching you come out the other side of it with all that you did and in the like, it felt like a really long time, at the time that you were in that dark place, because it was so horrible. When I look back, I'm like, Oh, she like, that was not actually that long for you to go through that kind of, look at all of your feelings, go, Okay, right? This is what I'm going to do about all of this. And kind of come through the other side. It was quite amazing. To make you uncomfortable.

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Amber Izzo  11:25  

Not at all. I think it's, yeah, I mean, like, you say you didn't know. I mean, I didn't know anything about it to begin with, either it was one of those, like, I think we're quite similar in that sense that I came out of hospital and I was like, right, okay, what do I need to do next? And I threw myself straight into it, which I don't, you know, might be the right thing for some people, but I don't necessarily think was the right thing for me at the time. But I think, like when we look back and we look back at photos around that time, I think you can just see the gradual spiral that I was going down. And I remember, I would like to say I was diagnosed in the September, and then my birthday was in the November, and we had a party at my house, and I think this was the first time, really, that, I mean, you're very protective over me anyway, I think that's a very clear thing, like you're very much, in some ways, Mother me, I suppose, and you're very much like that. Our relationship has that kind of dynamic. You're the person I go to with any kind of problem. But that made me jump, whatever that was, um, but, yeah, I think I remember that party and that being the fact maybe the first time I'd had a drink since I was diagnosed. And obviously everybody was there. And by this point, everybody had known, because I was so open about it, and I remember us having a conversation with other friends in the garden and them consistently, kind of saying to me, it's going to work. Like, I just know it's going to work, it'll be fine. You'll have treatment, it will work. And I kept kind of saying, like, I Please stop saying that to me, like it might not, it might not. And it was taken as pessimism, I think, from my side, but you then kind of scooped in and kind of took that out of my hands and got to the point where you actually stepped in and said, You need to stop saying this stuff. And it was quite clear, I think, that you'd started to educate yourself on some side. So, like, what made you do that? Really? Because clearly, like, like, you know, like, we say, other people hadn't. Other people were still coming out with these insensitive comments, and did for you know, the entirety of the journey, but you were somebody who didn't. So what was that like for you? Like, where did you get that information and what made you do it? Ultimately?

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Beci Piggott  13:34  

Yeah, I think a lot of it obviously your kind of, like, social media presence helped, because, like, I say, you were so open about things, that kind of a lot of the information was there, and what you were saying, like you were putting out there, how you felt about things. But also, as you started building that community, there were all these other places I could look and a lot of people being kind of candid about their experiences. And you could see that there was quite a common theme. Obviously, not everybody's the same, but quite a few people would say, please don't say this to me. That makes me that makes me really uncomfortable, or this doesn't help in the way that you think it does, etc. So I kind of just went down a bit of a rabbit hole on that, I think, a because I wanted to be able to support you in the best way, but also you've just got quite a natural don't want to say the wrong thing, or want to be as like, supportive and inclusive as possible. Hence why I do my job now. So I just was like, right? What is the kind of common way to approach this that is the most helpful for most people? And then if it wasn't the best for you, I knew you would say, actually, I know people say that that helps, but for me, that makes me really annoyed to stop it. And I've been like, okay, absolutely. Or you would have said, people say that they don't like this, but actually, that would really help me, and then I could do it. But I just knew that you were already having to deal with so much stuff in your own head and researching everything and trying to find out everything that you could, that if I was then chipping in, like, Well, have you tried this? And why don't you just think more positively and just don't think that it won't happen, because then it won't I just knew that none of that was going to help when you were trying to. To keep yourself as emotionally stable as possible in what was almost an impossible time to do that. So just adding in anything that was going to be annoying, but that's kind of not the right word for anything that wasn't going to help you. So I just wanted to know as much as possible. So I knew all sorts of science stuff as well that I never knew before. I didn't know what a blastocyst was. That was the one thing I don't know why that I knew so much about. I think I found it really interesting. I just knew all of this stuff, because then as well, when you got into actual treatment, and I wanted to know what you were going through as much as I possibly could without having been through it myself. So I knew, like, Okay, this part is going to be particularly difficult for her. This part might be where she needs this support, etc. So it's just a full deep dive. So I could not put my foot in my mouth. Basically,

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Amber Izzo  15:49  

I do think one thing you were good at was that you would kind of like you say about asking questions and, you know, not saying the wrong thing. But I do think you were quite good at asking questions, and you knew that ultimately the only person that could tell you how to support me was me. And like you say, there is so much available online, and I think there are some things that are quite generic, and people feel the same about across the board, that just relax, just go on holiday, have a drink, borrow my husband. Those kind of things I think are quite generic, and everybody responds the same way to but the amount of support somebody needs, or the treatment that they're going through, it all varies so much, and so what I might have been going through would maybe be different to somebody that you might have known who had endometriosis and was doing a different kind of treatment, or somebody where, you know it was unexplained, or Somebody with just male factor. I don't mean just male infertility in the way of, like, fobbing it off. I just mean without a female factor too. But you were quite good at kind of messaging me and just being like, I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but what does this mean? Or what can I do to help you here? Or, you know, I've looked at this, so is this this? And if I was talking about something and you didn't understand, you would make that kind of conscious effort to ask that question. And I'm very much like, I don't think there's such thing as a stupid question if you don't know, you don't know, it's as simple as that. But you did always kind of caveat it with if you don't want to talk about it, it's fine. And you did go out of your way to kind of ask me how I was feeling about certain things. And in fact, I always remember when I was going through my first round of treatment, and I had won tickets to the fertility show, and I was meant to be going with a friend that I'd met online who was also going through the IVF process. They got poorly, so couldn't come. And I think I must have been, like, a week into injections, and I think my train was at like, 10 o'clock, and at nine I text you, and I was like, Beck, I don't want to go on my own. I'm terrified. Can you come and you did, like you, you just kind of dropped everything and got on that train with me. I mean, I know that was a strange experience for you, like, we've spoken about this, and, you know, we were going around, and people were assuming that we were a couple. And, you know, I mean, you guys know how diverse it is. We were walking around, and it was, it was, I think it was a weird experience for me, a being in the thick of it, and walking in and suddenly there being all this stuff that relates to everything that I'm going through in that moment. But for you, that must have been a really weird experience, actually.

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Beci Piggott  18:20  

Yeah, it was, well, it was basically like that deep dive, just come to life online so far, and I'm just in a massive conference hall, but it was, I think that was massively helpful as well, just watching you kind of navigate your way around that, and seeing the things that you were interested in, seeing the things that you were like, Oh, that's not relevant to me because of XYZ. Because, no, I thought there was, like, one treatment, and that was the one that you got, and that was it. And you were like, No, that's only if you have XYZ, and that's if you have this, whereas I need to have this kind of one. I was like, this is even bigger than I thought before. But I think with that, and with wanting to ask you questions and stuff, I just never wanted you to have your like, normal life, previous life, and then your IVF life, and have them completely separate, where you could only talk to certain people about some things, and you could only talk to me about anything that wasn't IVF. Didn't want you to have to separate things like that. So the more that I could, like learn, and the more I could come along with you to things like that and be your wife for the day, which was lovely, meant that you could have just your one life that wasn't having to be separated into all of these things, where it was like, this is the IVF bit, and this is all very intense, and then this is everything else, and I can't cross over, and people in this life don't want to hear about this, and vice versa. I just wanted it to be that your friends were there for everything, for the whole package, because we we signed up for the whole thing.

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Amber Izzo  19:46  

You knew what you were getting yourself into. I suppose on day one, when you sat down and said, Hi Amber, nice to meet you, and I want a baby like, it was very much into it. It wasn't quite like that, but, yeah, I think it did just like really, I. For me anyway, I think it kind of solidified that I knew, I mean, I always knew you were somebody I could count on. But I think this journey really kind of shows you, I don't know if who your friends are is the right word, because I do think you have different friends at different points in your life that are good for some things and not good for others, like I mean, I do, but I you wouldn't necessarily be my go to person for marriage advice, for example, like, it's things like that that. I mean, like, I say I absolutely do, but not in the same way that I would somebody else. And so I think it really does kind of show who, who you can count on in those moments, and also who's willing to make that effort. And you really were. I mean, when that, I mean, so we had two, two fresh cycles that failed, but a lot of testing, kind of in between all that. And it was a long old road. But when that first cycle failed, I think it was one of those that, as much as you, as much as you hope it will work, I had prepared like we know I'd prepared for it, not working in that I was more I was very conscious of the fact that for most people, it takes more than one attempt, but I still took that quite hard. Didn't really know what the next steps were like. Were there any points where you kind of felt I don't know how I can be helpful here, or I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do, and therefore you think maybe you didn't, I don't. That's not me insinuating that there were times that you did I just like, I'm just wondering if, from your perspective, there was ever a point where you thought I don't know how to how to deal with this now?

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Beci Piggott  21:37  

Constantly, constantly, but not in a not because of anything I was or wasn't doing, or anything you were weren't doing. It's just that, like, you don't know how much support to try and give, or how much space to give, and you don't know how much people want to talk about things, and you don't want to as much as I could kind of ask, like, look, just tell me what you need and whatnot. You don't want to constantly be like, Hi, just checking in. Also, is it okay that I check in? Sorry, I don't mean to be annoying. So I'm like, when I'm just adding an extra thing onto her plate, which is having to deal with me being like, I'm sorry. I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. So it was a constant, wanting to give you space, but not wanting to give you so much that you felt alone. And I think, I think we kind of managed our way around that, and you're very good at saying what you need and when you need someone more so than me, I think so that was very helpful for you to be like, yeah, I could. I could do with some company now. Or, look, I'm going to be a bit kind of MIA for a few days. Don't worry. I'm okay. I just need some space and but it is constant just thinking, I don't know if what I'm doing is right or what you need. And sometimes it's not even that I can ask you what you need, because sometimes you didn't know. You didn't know what was going to help you, because you were like, well, especially that first one, you're like, This has never happened to me before. This is the first time we're experiencing this. I can't tell you what I need because I have no idea. Just realistically, I needed it to work and it didn't. So here we are. There's nothing again that I could do to kind of fix what had happened. So it's just playing it by ear a little bit, and kind of half asking you and half just going off, okay. I think this seems to be making her feel better. It's also a little bit of, how much do you talk about it, and how much do you kind of act as if everything's normal? You don't want to completely ignore it and have you be like, Oh, well, you're just not acknowledging this at all, and I'm going through all this, and you're not mentioning it, but also, I didn't ever want to come around and be with you for like, three hours, and it's all we spoke about, and you didn't get any chance to kind of have a bit of brain space and be amber outside of this horrible thing that you were going through. So it's trying to find that balance as well, of still having a laugh about stuff and being silly and joking over something stupid over a coffee, but then immediately switching into bit of a deep conversation and back and forth as much as you needed to. But yeah, it's a difficult one, and it changed every changed both times. I think it wasn't the same after the first one as it was after the second one, because then circumstances are different. It's, I say, easier. It's not what I mean. But it's different in a way, because you've been through it before, but then it's also worse in a way, because you've been through it before. So that was a bit of a challenge as well. 

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Amber Izzo  24:13  

I think I was going to get on to the second one, because the second one, we obviously found out it failed three days into lockdown, maybe two days into lockdown. We'd definitely gone into lockdown, but yeah, and so that one was completely different, because we couldn't do what we would usually do. You couldn't, like the first one, I think you came around. You'd made, like, this gorgeous little care package for me, which you're very good at. You do that a lot, and you'd come around, you'd put so much thought into it, whereas this time we just kind of, we couldn't do that. So was was that different for you, or was it I don't know, like I know for me, it was I found it, if anything, I actually preferred going through it in lockdown, because I could just put my phone down and go outside and not need to acknowledge anyone, not need to speak to anyone. It was quite easy for me to only respond when I wanted to. But I suppose from your perspective, that might have been different?

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Beci Piggott  25:08  

Yeah, a little bit, it was. It did make it easier in that like, oh, I don't know how much space she needs, I was out of my hands. You had, you had locked down space, as did. I couldn't come and see you even I wanted to. And so it did mean that, like you say, I messaged you. It was up to you when you kind of got back to me and when you needed that support. But then at the same time, your friends going through something like that, all you want to do is give them a squeeze. And I couldn't, like couldn't sit on your sofa and chat away for however long we needed it. So it did feel that kind of distance where you wanted to be with you, but you couldn't. And then when you're trying to check in, you only have one way, really, which is just like, text you or message you better. And then you can just see it would be like, don't worry about, like, replying to this just checking in that you don't want it to just be constant from like, your so we like, Oh, I am being a nuisance. Just checking in again, just checking in again. You just don't think you ever really, like, left it. You would say, if you needed some space or whatever, and but that being the only way that I could support you was then hard. But I think, yeah, like you say you had that space whether you wanted it or not, but I think you did, so it kind of weirdly was a good time for that to be happening for you in that sense. 

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Amber Izzo  26:17  

I mean, from, so, from a friend's perspective, if you like, obviously for me, and I think for a lot of people going through fertility treatment or trying to conceive and facing challenges that, you know, it does become all consuming, like, I know, for me, I think I'm maybe slightly different in that I created the social presence. I started the campaigning, like it literally became my entire life in every single sense of the word. So I am maybe different in that retrospect, but I do believe it is all consuming for, you know, 95% of people going through it, it becomes their whole life. It's all they think about. And it's a really horrible journey to be on. You know, I always say it's a club with incredible members in it, but nobody wants to be there. You know, you'd all, you'd all leave it in a second if you could. But you still have your own life, and you're still going through your own stuff. And I know that there were times where perhaps I wasn't able to be there for you in the same way that you you were for me. But you know, what's it like, kind of navigating it, I suppose, from that perspective. Like, you know, I'm wording this question really bad, but ultimately, like, I say, you know, we won't go into it, but when I was in my second cycle, you were you also had things going on yourself, and it did for a while after that. And I think, you know, so what was that like trying to support somebody else when they weren't necessarily able to support you in the same way, but you still wanted to be there, but also had your own life to deal with. Like, was it ever kind of tricky to like, I'm not. I want you to be honest, and I like, there's no kind of offense here. Like, if there was ever a point where you were like, No, I can't do this, and that's fine, but did it ever come into play that you were like this? You know, we've been in this a lot longer than either of us ever hoped I would be in that it got to a point where you were maybe a bit like, I don't know what more I can do now.

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Beci Piggott  28:05  

No, I don't think so. Not, not in that sense. I think there's like, you say you kind of recognize that you're not going to be able to give like, 100% of the support that you might have been able to give before, because you're going through your own thing. But I think I also then had the same worry that I was like, Oh, am I able to give her, like, 100% of what I normally would give, because I've got my own stuff going on and but I think as well, that's one of those other reasons why I wanted to understand more about it, make sure you weren't, like, separating your life and you could talk to me about everything, because otherwise you'd have this huge thing going on that we didn't really talk about. And then especially if I had my own stuff going on, and I felt like, I was like, Yeah, give me all your support. I just think I would have felt awful because I've been like, I know she's struggling with something that I don't understand because I haven't like taken the time to look into it or learn about it, and she's trying to give me what she can, and I'm giving her nothing. So I think, if anything, as well, it sometimes gave you something else to think about, because there was just another thing to talk about that wasn't what you were going through and we could kind of lean on each other. They weren't the same thing at all. But where we were both going through something, we could lean on each other and support each other and feel like it wasn't one of us felt like we were kind of taking everything and like, Oh, I'm needing all the support. We were a nice little whatever. This is little tower, one of these, yeah, it almost kind of helps, because you think, yeah, this is a it's a mutually supportive friendship relationship where we help each other. It's not just that one person kind of has their thing and then the other person is just there as a support system, because that's our friend. So I think I never thought like, oh, I can't, I don't have time to think about Amber stuff at the minute in the same way that you never said to me, like, I know you've got your stuff going on, but I've got stuff going on and I can't deal with it right now. Sometimes you'd be like, I'm so sorry. I can't, like, be there for you. I'm doing X, Y, Z, to try and get myself out of a bit of a hole. And the other one would just be like, Yeah, that's absolutely fine. I get it, I will be saying the same to you in a couple of weeks and but it never felt like it stopped us from supporting each other. Don't think of anything, because it was around that like second time, where we had the bit before. Obviously, I wish that you'd never gone through any of it, but it does strengthen your friendship and your relationships when you've kind of supported each other through horrible stuff like that. And so by that point, I knew that you were there for me no matter what, because I was there for you no matter what. So it kind of that strength from all the rest of the stuff, I think then helps.

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Amber Izzo  30:33  

What do you think? What do you think helped it like if you were to say to somebody, I suppose, if you were to give somebody that is in our situation, but still in the thick of it. Now, what advice would you give them as a friend? Because I think, you know, I know when I've done Q and A's on Instagram, it's a common question of all my sister's going through this, or my friend, and I always think, you know, when I think of our relationship, I think we are more like sisters and friends in a lot of ways. And people do say, you know, how do you support a family member, or how do you support a friend or a colleague or anyone really? And I know that we can kind of get onto the colleague kind of stuff because of your work, but from a friend perspective or a family perspective, it's easy for me to answer based on what I needed at that time, but I am not every single person in the community. So what would your answer be to that question? If somebody said to you, my friend is going through this, how can I support them going through this?

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Beci Piggott  31:28  

I think that, like researching stuff, all of that does help, just because it means that you feel a little bit less lost in it, where, especially if you've had no kind of experience of any of this stuff, it means that you have at least a base level of understanding of what might be going on and what they're talking about. There's so many acronyms and things that have a little like Glossary of what you were talking about. Sometimes, when I was like, that means this cool, fine, but not all kind of looking online and stuff. I think all of the Instagram things and the accounts and the people that you kind of recommend and stuff are really helpful because that's real life, and that is people sharing their real experiences, and you get an idea of what that journey is like for people. If you've never been through it yourself, I think that really helped me. Then when you were explaining stuff to be like, Oh yeah, I've seen somebody else talk about that. And I could even if you hadn't said, I'm going through this, and so I need this support. You just said I'm going through this, but I thought that person spoke about that on something I saw, and they said that this really helped when they were going through that. And you can kind of piece those things together, but I think the huge one was just kind of asking you, in a way, what you needed, and not being offended if the answer for a little while, was just checking on me, but I might not answer. I just need some space to kind of figure out what my brain is doing, and then being able to give you that support. When you asked for it and you needed it, you said, Okay, no, actually, now I need, like, company. I need someone to come around and they need to just chat through my thoughts, or I need to chat through literally anything else, and not always thinking it's going to be the same thing. Because what might have helped you on kind of week one wasn't necessarily what was going to help you on week four or week five. It was going to change. So not kind of doing something and then trying to do the same thing and you being like, Oh, that's not as helpful anymore. But it worked two weeks ago. What do you mean? And now you're saying, I'm doing it wrong. It's just kind of change, taking yourself out of it a little bit. And I know it's really difficult because you're so worried that you're gonna, like, do the wrong thing or say the wrong thing, or make it worse, but I don't think you can really make it worse unless you are really going through the full like, don't list of all the worst things you could say. If you're there for someone, you're showing up and saying, I just want to be here to support you. That's not going to make things worse. So try and just kind of get out of your own head of, I don't know if I can support them. I don't know if I'm going to be the best person, like, just be there and they can kind of take from you what they need.

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Amber Izzo  33:55  

Yeah, I think, I think we were very good at communicating that. I think that's something we've always been very good at. We're both, I think we're both incredibly anxious people that are constantly worried we're upsetting the other so everything is caveated with, I hope this is okay, but sorry. Basically, we're just a pair of messes. It works. Yeah, exactly. But yeah. I think for me, I think communication with so keen. I think that's something that you are very good at. And I think one thing that I was very open about, and I think you know, you've obviously learned over the years, because I've never been able to afford to do anything, is the cost of it. Did that surprise you when I first said to you, this is how much it's costing, and this is how we're paying for it.

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Beci Piggott  34:39  

Yeah, and like, I knew it was expensive, but I think probably the only knowledge I really had a bit is how much it costs in America, because I'd seen them in like, programs and stuff before and but, yeah, the cost of so all the additional stuff as well. So it's not even just like the treatment, but even when you were getting extra tests and things like that, when you're trying to figure out. Or even the treatment that you needed, and that will cost money. And then obviously, you found out all about the like postcode lottery stuff, which still to stay makes my blood boil because it's so unfair. But that was horrible. Then to watch you have to you were already dealing with all this stuff and all these emotions. And then on top of that, because of where you lived, you had to figure out where you going to find all of this money, and it's not a small amount of money. It's not just kind of saving for a few months, and it doesn't really affect how much you'll be able to spend your everyday life. You're just putting a little bit away, like you had to really change your entire lifestyle and look at everything and have, I imagine, like 17 different spreadsheets trying to figure out how you were going to do it and what you were going to do. And that was just baffling to me. So it was also then thinking of that when we said, oh, should we like, have a little girly day that wasn't going to be a girly day, like going to London and having lunch at the ivy, or wherever it was going to be? Let's not suggest that. Let's suggest that I come around with some snacks and we watch a film, which is also fine by me. It's the best kind of day. But it's not putting you in a position where you have to constantly say, we're trying to save like, we can't do that. I can't do all of these million things. No, we can't go on a three week all inclusive holiday. Not that I ever suggested that, but think we should do that now, putting you in a position where you had to think, Oh, I'm missing out on stuff because I'm trying to save for this.

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Amber Izzo  36:26  

Yeah, I think that's another thing. I think that's a really important thing to consider. I would say, as a friend going through it, because I think it does get tiring being the person to say, I can't afford it. I can't afford it like, you know, I and you want to still be included in things. I mean, I think our dynamic is maybe a little bit different. Bit different to some other people that will be listening in that we although, you know, we do things as a group, it tends we're kind of friends on our own, and then we have our own groups, like separately. So it was never a thing of me getting left out and you were all going to do something else. It was always kind of one on one, whereas I think in the other dynamic, it would be a lot harder. But I think you do have to appreciate just how much it costs and that it isn't, you know, it isn't something that somebody will try once, and then they'll try again three years later, and then if it doesn't work again, they'll save for another 18 months and try again, like it's, you know, unfortunately, fertility is a ticking time bomb and, and that's just kind of unfortunately the way it is in some in some cases, but I think being mindful of that is so important. And, you know, I never had any issue saying that to you like, I remember at one point working three jobs, and you saying to me, I think you're going to break, like, take the foot off the pedal here somewhere, please. Um, but I think it is really important to acknowledge that and to accept that this, you know, they aren't, you know, granted, yes, sometimes they're not going out because they don't want to, or their friends are already parents and they don't want to sit and listen to everybody talk about their kids for five hours. And, you know, I never had that with you, so that was, that was fine, but I think just to be aware of that cost is is really quite an important factor, especially when doing it more than once, it's an awful lot, but I think moving on from that, it's, it's impacted you, I would say, in wider ways, in that, obviously you got onto kind of what you what you do for work, but you have kind of brought my experience into your work life. So like, what is it that you've done effectively? Like, how has it impacted you in that sense?

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Beci Piggott  38:22  

Yeah, just like, I say, once you have that many jobs and trying to do a million things at once to save and then also, what are you having to decide when, like, where you're going to work, if you're going to stay in a job that isn't kind of serving you anymore because of the maternity leave policy or the policies that would allow you to take time off, to go through treatment, if there even was a policy, you having to figure out, okay, within the policies that already exist, what can I do? Am I going to have to use all of my leave for this? Is any of it covered in sick, whatever it might be? So in my last company, I said that we have to have something for this, like I also knew through you how many people go through infertility of some kind and then go through IVF or some kind of treatment, is that there's, there's no way that we don't have people working for us that are going through this, that we need something so they're not having to scramble around and try and pick out different bits of different policies to figure out what they can do. They can just go to a place and be like, Oh yeah, I'm supported. My employer understands that I need this time or I need this support. You can't always give massive amounts, but if you can even give, like, a few days paid for treatment like that would have taken a bit of a burden off of you, where you're already thinking like, okay, need to save all of this money, and then you're like, right, how much unpaid time am I gonna have to take off for work? So I put policies in my old place and then this place, but then also just looking at that support aspect as well of where you've got things for mental health. And people are getting much better at looking at different kind of things that come into that and what can affect people's mental health. But there wasn't really that much talk of fertility stuff. And I think, like you said before it was. Because there is a kind of taboo around it, mostly, I think, with a lot of things, because people don't know what they can and can't say, or what they shouldn't shouldn't say. But that doesn't serve anybody, that doesn't help anybody if no one's talking about it, because people are still going through it. So trying to get that into conversations where people are talking about mental health and the things that can affect it, and then also, just recently, shouting about how great you are, which is lovely thing for International Women's Day at my current company, and I did a big old spiel about you. So it's talking about this in any way that you can, and getting the information out there in a kind of educational way, or in a way, like celebrating somebody like you, so that people understand how many people it's impacting. And the difference I think, having supportive people can make so obviously, having like, supportive friends and family at home, but you don't spend your entire life at home. You spend a huge chunk of it at work, with your colleagues and with your manager. And if you feel like you can go to them, even if it's a small company that doesn't have that much money. So they can't put in policies where they give you paid time off if there's that kind of education piece, and people know a little bit of what they're talking about, they know how to support people. They have open conversations about it. You felt you could go to your manager and say, I need to take this time off for this treatment. But also in this, I think it was in your like two week wait and things like that, like, I'm not going to be working at full capacity because some of my mind is going to be on this, or when you get your diagnosis, I need some support right now. I might need to take, like, a little bit of the day just to get my thoughts in order. Any of that, if you can't go to your manager and talk to them about that, just this huge extra burden on you that you really don't need, when that could be aided by somebody just being there that you can talk to? Yeah,

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Amber Izzo  41:41  

I think, I mean, you made such an effort, in my opinion, anyway, to make it right. And I think you, I remember us having conversations, and you messaging me, like, Okay, how many appointments Did you attend? Like, is this enough? Do you need more? What do you need here? You know, at what point do you need this? When would you need that? Are there any other things you would need to go to outside of when you're actually in treatment, and this like you, you made such a conscious effort to make that difference. And I think that's a really a kind thing to do, and I think it's lovely from my perspective, to see you take something that was incredibly awful in my life and try and make it better for so many other people like I think, you know, it was an amazing thing to do, and I think so many more employers should do it. But I think just from a workplace perspective, like that's such a great thing to do. And I think we are hearing more and more of it. I think, you know, a lot of a lot of companies are now implementing fertility policies. I think there's a lot of question marks over you know, whether or not they work, whether they don't, and how they can be better, because it is still quite a new thing, but I imagine for the people in that company, it did make such a big difference. And having somebody like you there that they can talk to, who has experience of it somewhat in some kind of capacity, I think was amazing. And I think, yeah, you should be very, very proud of yourself for

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Beci Piggott  43:00  

I like complimenting you, but you know I can't take it back.

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Amber Izzo  43:03  

Get the baseball bat out back it bat it away. Yeah, I don't know. I just think it's, it's really great that you've kind of gone on to do that. And I think it's a, it's a compliment to me in some ways, I think, because I just think it's, you know, it proves how good of a support system I have around me. So I yeah, really think that's such a great thing that you did. And, yeah, do you think it's made you better at your job in that way? Like, do you think it's made it that you can be that person that people come to when beforehand, they maybe didn't know who to speak to?

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Beci Piggott  43:36  

I think a bit. I think even, like, I say there was lots of things maybe, like, right? I'll go and research this so I know what I'm talking about at least somewhat, but I think this was one of the biggest things that I've done that before, and done a real kind of deep dive, obviously, because I had a kind of personal connection, a personal mistake in it, that I wanted to support you. But I think from then I do that even more now with other things, because I saw how helpful that was to me to then be able to understand what you were going through. So even that kind of following people on Instagram and stuff like that, it's one of the main things I say to people now, is to put yourself in circles that you wouldn't normally be in, like follow people from different communities, different experiences, different backgrounds on social media and wherever else you kind of read stuff, so that you immerse yourself in that, because it's the best way to learn about people, and then to kind of support them and include them. So if you're just in your own little bubble, that's all you're ever gonna understand. And I haven't been through IVF in infertility, I won't say I don't want to have kids. So it's not something that I even was like, Oh, I'll learn about this, because I might need it personally, like it just helps me to understand something that I'm never going to be able to understand. Going to be able to understand myself, which, especially in my job doing diversity and inclusion, there's a lot of things that I'm not going to understand because I don't have lived experience of it, and that it really does make a difference to just kind of fully put yourself in, into those groups, into those communities, to learn about them. 

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Amber Izzo  44:59  

And that's it. I think, you know, it doesn't just, like IVF, doesn't just affect people like me in heterosexual relationships that have a diagnosis where they've been trying to conceive without treatment for however long. You know, it impacts same sex couples. It impacts people who are embarking on motherhood on their own or single fatherhood going through surrogacy. Like there is, there's so much. It's such a big umbrella, I think that encompasses an awful lot of stuff that people do forget about. So I think it's really important to have that and have an awareness. And that's something I think you are very good at. You do regularly, put yourself into the shoes and try and figure out things from other people's perspectives, which is why you're so good at your job and going places. I think my final question to you really would be that, you know, we say about people not knowing what to say and not knowing what to do, and that's why you kind of, you know, did what you did at work and all the rest of it. But do you think it's better to get it wrong or do nothing at all? Like, would you rather if you were to kind of speak to like, I can say a friend of somebody who was trying to conceive who didn't know what the right or wrong thing was to say, would you say to them, yeah, is it better to get it wrong, or is it better, in your opinion, to then step back and own that you, you probably can't help?

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Beci Piggott  46:12  

Yeah, get it wrong, I think. But with the caveat that you say, this might not be the right thing to say, but I think you can't go too far wrong. If you stop for a second and think about, if you were in that position, what would help you? And like we said, it's not the same for everybody, but if I was in that position and somebody said to me, like you said earlier, that you could borrow my husband, that wouldn't help, that wouldn't feel like they were supporting me, that would feel like a really annoying comment. And I know that despite the fact that I've never been through any of that, so if you kind of stay kind of step back for a second thinking, Okay, this is the kind of thing I think I'm going to say, if that was me, would that help? Am I saying it with all like the right intentions? And if you say that someone, I think they know that you meant well, even if you get it wrong, and you just have to make sure that you're open at the other side, if they say thanks, just so you know that actually is offensive, or it's not particularly supportive, or it makes me feel uncomfortable because of these reasons that you're able to say, Oh, I'm so sorry. Didn't mean to do that. Won't do it again, and then that's it. That's where you move on. You just don't do it again. It doesn't have to be a big thing. So I think the other thing that people do, if they're worried they're going to say the wrong thing, they said this might not be the right thing to say, but, and someone says, yeah, that was the wrong thing to say. They go, Oh, I'm a horrible person. I'm so sorry. I'm dreadful. I can't believe I've made you feel this way. And then they make it all about them because they are so they're trying to show how sorry they are. And then they kind of put it back on that person to then kind of console them, even though they've already been made to feel a bit uncomfortable what's being said. So it is just a case saying, oh, sorry, yeah, totally get that. Won't do that again. 

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Amber Izzo  47:46  

Yeah that's a really interesting point, actually, because I think it is, you know, it is hard to hear that you've got it wrong. I think especially when you're really trying to get it right, it's, uh, I'm not very good at that. I think I know that, you know, if I've said something that upsets somebody, I know that it, you know, I take that very personally, and I think, you know, it is so right. And I think it is about remembering that it isn't about you, and that they will know that you're trying, as long as you don't, then try to deflect that away, I suppose. But yeah, thank you so much back for coming and sitting with me. It has felt very weird talking to you. It has been a pleasure speaking to you. As always you're not I mean, we can't find you anywhere, so I won't ask you to do that,

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Beci Piggott  48:30  

On you Instagram sometimes, yeah, every now and again I pop up.

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Amber Izzo  48:32  

You pop up here and there, but yeah, it really has been so lovely having you on. So thank you so much for coming and speaking to us. No worry. It's been a joy, lovely. All right, I'll see you later. Bye. Beci Piggott, everyone. I love that woman with my entire being, and I feel so proud to call her my best friend. And so I really hope that listening to this episode gives you confidence that there are people who will be there for you throughout your journey, and if you don't know how to tell your friends or your loved ones what it is that you need. But this episode resonated with you, then send it to them and ask them to listen. In the meantime, we'll be back next week with another fabulous guest and another great episode of misconception. But until then, make sure you subscribe to and rate this podcast. Follow us on socials at Gaia family official, and we'll see you next week. 

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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