Amber Izzo  0:00  

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Hello, you are listening to misconception, a Gaia family podcast. My name is Amber Izzo and I am your host. Each week we release a new episode talking about the various paths to parenthood, from community stories to conversations with experts. We've got you covered. Gaia's mission is to make IVF more accessible for more people with a financial plan that allows you to start and protect your IVF and access to a community who just get it. We're here for you. You can request a free, personalized quote at Gaiafamily.com. This week, we are speaking to Katie Bouchier, a Gaia member and IVF mum. Katie and her wife, Georgia, have embarked on their IVF journey, having already been through IUI. And throughout this podcast, Katie candidly shares her experience with IUI, IVF baby loss and navigating IVF abroad as a same sex couple. Let's bring her in. Katie, hello. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you?

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Katie Bouchier  1:14  

I'm good. Thank you.

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Amber Izzo  1:15  

Good. It's really nice to have you on I'm going to do the same with you that I do with every guest that we have on misconception, and I'm going to hand over to you and ask you really, just to tell us your fertility story from your perspective.

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Katie Bouchier  1:30  

Okay, so me and my wife, we're obviously in a same sex couple, and we got married in 2020, just before lockdown, actually, luckily, and we always knew that we wanted to start a family. So the reason, well, we got married for lots of reasons, but we got married quite quickly because we knew that we wanted to start a family. And for same sex couples, the legislation is, if you are married, you can both be the legal parent on the birth certificate. But if you're not, then whoever's not the birth mother would have to adopt the kid. So that was really important to us, that we were both like legally on the birth certificate from the beginning, so then, but then obviously lockdown happened, basically six weeks after our wedding, which was really helpful, and no clinics were obviously doing treatment, especially in the first part, when everything was so uncertain. But once they opened, we went straight for it, and we were advised to go straight to IUI because we were same sex couple and sort of no known fertility issues. We did a few rounds of IUI. The first one didn't work. The second one was canceled because they found a large ovarian cyst. And the third one was successful, but ended in a missed miscarriage. So at that point, we sort of spent a lot of money on donor sperm and treatment and all of this stuff, and and we decided to go for IVF, but again, a price wise, IVF in the UK especially is super expensive, as I'm sure you're well aware. So we looked at going abroad, and we found a really good clinic in Greece, and that's when we we found Gaia, and they funded our round of IVF in Greece, and now we have an 18 month old little boy. 

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Amazing. So you are now a mum. I mean, if we go, if we go back to the beginning of when you kind of started IUI. So the IUI process is obviously different to IVF in that you don't have the egg collection, and then the procedure is done within the clinic. So did you have to go through the whole process of choosing donor sperm for for your IUI initially?

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Yeah. So the either way we we did it, we would have to use donor sperm. Now, obviously there's lots of different options for that as well, like a known donor, or, you know, from a sperm bank. We never personally liked the idea of a known donor, and to be fair, we don't actually know that many men probably that would be willing to to donate. So for us it was, it was, yeah, going straight to a sperm bank, which is in itself a minefield, but yeah, we got there in the end.

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Amber Izzo  4:48  

How was that process of kind of deciding what to do? Because I know the laws around donor sperm in the UK are quite different what they are abroad, like completely anonymous. So. Sperm is illegal here. Whereas, you know, when we, when we talk about donors, and we say, like a known donor, they're they're anonymous up until a certain point. So when the child is 16, they get non identifiable information. But when they're 18, they can be given the donors full, full details of who they are, where they live, etc, etc, yeah, did that kind of come into play in your head, was that something that you you did consider

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Katie Bouchier  5:23  

It wasn't really so because we were having treatment, we had the IUI in the UK, we knew that. We knew the process of it being, yeah, the like said, the information that they can get when they're 16 and then again, when they're 18. And it wasn't something that obviously put us off or anything, just that's how it was, and that was fine. So we we knew that that was a potential coming up, that if we were successful, any future potential children could could get that information. And I think it's, it's not really something that you Well, it's the law. So you can't, you can't fight it. You can't, you know it is what it is. But when you want a child, you know, as badly as we did, like, they could tell us that, you know it would come round on their 18th birthday and hand them a card, and we'd probably be like, Yeah, all right, cool. Let's do it. Like, it like, yeah. It's something that you just when you're in in the thick of it, you would probably agree to sell your soul, wouldn't you, so it didn't really nothing like that deterred us, whereas when we had our IVF in in Greece, their legislation is that it has to be a closed donor, so there's no information. And again, that didn't it wasn't enough to deter us. So we didn't have, like, a preference either way, really, I think now that we've had Eddie and we have sort of stopped and sat back and thought about it like there probably are some more repercussions that we probably didn't think of at the time. Like, is he going to understand why, if he knows other donor children, potentially, why they might be able to have information and he can't? Sort of thing. There's those sort of implications. But you know, he's going to grow up knowing exactly how he was made and exactly what we did to get him, like, it's never going to be a secret in our house, like, as long as he knows and we're honest and open with him, then he can know everything we know. So yeah.

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Amber Izzo  7:36  

Yeah, I think so when you were kind of going through the IUI process, because I know, obviously as a same sex couple, things can be a lot more complicated in terms of qualifying for NHS treatment and being able to go through the process. So was your IUI NHS funded, or did you have to go privately for that? 

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Katie Bouchier  7:54  

No, we had to go privately. So yeah, obviously it all depends on, on which CCG that you're under, etc, in terms of NHS treatment, and then if, even if your local commission place does offer our UI, then there's even stricter like BMI, if you've had previous children, All of that stuff. So we, we didn't qualify because I don't think they did it where we were, and I might not have even qualified because of BMI, either. So we figured we would go straight into into private and some, I don't think they, I think they've eradicated now some NHS criteria that for same sex couples, they have to prove that they've self funded, like, up to, I don't know, 10 rounds sometimes, of IUI or, you know, home insemination or something, before they help. So we were like, well, if we're going to end up spending, spending the money to do it anyway, what, you know, what's the point sort of thing?

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Amber Izzo  9:10  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, going into the private process. I mean, how was it in terms of finding a clinic to do the IUI, initially?

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Katie Bouchier  9:16  

It wasn't. It wasn't, it wasn't tough. I mean, we, I don't think that we really wanted to do IUI, if I'm honest, like in my mind, I thought we would go straight to IVF because it would make more sense financially, because you have the potential of multiple embryos, if you're lucky, from a single donor sperm vial. But we kind of, if I'm honest, felt the first clinic we were at kind of felt a little fobbed off. They didn't, they didn't give you that option. Like I remember the first consultation, I had to wait for ages. We had to wait for. Bridges to get it. And then it was a phone call, because it was obviously during covid, and it was probably about seven minutes, and she just went, well, you're two women, so to do IUI, and it wasn't really an open discussion. I was like, Yeah, but I'd like to discuss IVF. And she was like, no, no, you'll be fine. Just do IUI. And it was to us that that was a red flag for that clinic. So we moved clinics, and we did have, then have a discussion with with the consultant at the next clinic who listened to our like concerns and stuff, and said, Look, you've got nothing to lose. Try our UI like you're both, you know, young, fit, otherwise healthy. And they actually did like the test. They did like a saline...?

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Amber Izzo  10:44  

A dye test, the HSG? 

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Katie Bouchier  10:48  

Yes that's it, and all of that stuff. And they and they and they checked and everything. So whereas the first doctor that we'd spoke to was like, Well, no, you two women, you'll be fine, quite dismissive, yeah, it's not necessarily you know the truth, so. But other than that, no finding it. Finding a clinic was was easy, mostly, you know, and the wait lists are generally shorter for IUI because it's not as involved. You don't need as many sort of appointments during it. It's so, it's, yeah.

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Amber Izzo  11:23  

So at what point in the process, then, were you choosing donor sperm? So where, like, how far into it do you start doing that? And how, I mean, how do you even navigate it? How do you decide where to look and where to buy it from, and what, what it is that you're looking for. Like, what was that process? Were you looking I mean, were you looking for characteristics that were in one or both of you and things like that, or, again, was it something that you kind of went into and thought, You know what? Let's, let's have a look and go from there.

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Katie Bouchier  11:53  

We'd been looking sort of in general, because we knew we were going to go through the process we've been looking at, you know, places like European sperm bank and the Fairfax or whatever it is, like big, big, well known ones. And that was literally through, like a Google search, which is probably my history, is probably insane. Now, thought, I've been looking and and, you know, going through and blah, blah, blah, when it came to actually selecting it. We spoke to the clinic that we were with, and we asked them if they had any recommended sperm banks that were, like, easier and because sometimes they have, like, a they've had a previous relationship with them in terms of sending and shipping and all of that stuff, and they'd recommended a few so we, we looked at them, and at first we were really strict, so we always knew that I was going to carry and I was going to be the egg, that we were going to use my eggs, unless there was something that prevented that. So we did try and match the donor profile as closely to my wife as possible. And there was like, there was, like, no results. Like, we were like, Caucasian, this height, brown hair, brown eyes. And you can put, you can put all these different filters, like, what degree, what level they're educated to, like, degree, or all of this stuff, wow. And we'd put in all of these things, and we were like, Yeah, this is, this is, like, the perfect one. Um, hit search. And it's like, no, nothing, nothing's there. So we're like, Okay, well, that doesn't matter. We'll take that out. Search again. No, nothing's there. Oh, okay, well, okay, this doesn't matter. Take that out. We'll search again. And in the end, I think we had, like, brown hair and and, and Caucasian. That was all we searched for, because and that brought back like profiles. So it's they, it's great that they have all those options, but the the range of donors out there isn't that wide. And that was from that was, you know, we tried London sperm bank, European sperm bank, like places in America, like we'd look to all of these places, and just had to go with a more general, broad description. So.

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Amber Izzo  14:33  

Yeah, that's, it's amazing, really, that you think, you know, I mean, you read sometimes about there being, like a shortage of donor sperm, but you never think that kind of, you know, Caucasian brown hair, brown eyes, that that would always be an issue, like you feel like that would be quite a general description. So that's that I find that quite surprising, really. I mean, going through the process as a same sex couple, obviously we're still on the IUI point at this point, so you're still in the UK. Um, did you feel supported, and did you feel kind of understood, and that you got that same level of empathy that you would expect a heterosexual couple to get, that that were going through it for perhaps different reasons? 

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Katie Bouchier  15:11  

I don't think we did. But I think mainly that could be down to covid. It could be down to, you know, us being same sex, it could be down to anything. So does the first clinic that where we had our IUI, considering that I had three up cycles, Georgia never went in, no. Georgia never even went inside the building. Wow, like she was, she was never allowed in. And it used to annoy me, because, had it, had it been my partner, been a man, and he would have had to donate his sample, or whatever, like he would have been permitted in but Georgia wasn't, and I'm just there's no, you can't tell me that if it was covid, that it's because it's a maximum amount of people in the building, because you let a man and a woman in, so why can't you let two two women in? So it was, it was really interesting. I mean, the staff that they themselves were lovely. I do feel, though, as well, that we weren't sort of almost given as much thought, because we were considered like a straightforward case, simple case. Yeah, you don't, you don't need to be seen. You'll be fine. Just, let's just get on with it sort of thing. But again, that could be any, any range of reason, but it's almost almost, I remember at the time feeling like we weren't, we weren't good enough, or we weren't as important as the IVF people, which is a weird thing to feel, but like that, if somebody came in who was in the middle of an IVF cycle, or whatever, they would get priority, and I'd have to sit and wait because, you know, I don't know why. Yeah.

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Amber Izzo  17:07  

No, I understand it like that. That must have been really quite horrible to go through and to feel like you're not important. And I think in the fertility community, we talk a lot of the time about, you know, clinics making people feel like they're just a number rather than a patient in their own entity. And I think if you already feel like that to a degree, and then you feel like you're coming second to certain patients, that that must be a really hard thing to navigate. And I mean, I know George is not here to kind of speak for herself, but how did she find it not being able to go into those appointments with you?

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Katie Bouchier  17:40  

She found it really hard so we, like, we would FaceTime or, you know, video call or something, so she could be kind of present, but they were more like sort of consultations and scans for the actual procedure itself. Like I couldn't take my phone in and speak a phone while I'm, you know, in the steering, you know, in so frustrated, I think, is the is the main thing, like, again, going back to the point, like, if you want children, bad enough, like you just kind of put up with it, whatever it is. But she, you know, I remember her saying to me that she know she didn't feel like she was any part of it, because by not that biology makes any difference, but like, biologically, she wasn't involved. And, you know, physically she wasn't involved either she was, you know, the closest she ever got was the car park. So it was, it must have been really, really tough for her. 

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Amber Izzo  18:41  

Yeah absolutely. I mean, so you had, you had three rounds of IV... IUI, sorry that you said with that clinic, and you sadly ended in a missed miscarriage. I mean, that process were you, were we still in lockdown at at that point or not? 

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Katie Bouchier  18:59  

So hard to remember how many lockdowns had still sort of covid and there were covid restrictions so, but I don't know if we were in a physical lockdown. 

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Amber Izzo  19:11  

So how was that handled by the clinic? Did you feel that you were kind of given grace and empathy there?

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Katie Bouchier  19:19  

Well, no, to be honest, we, we did tell the clinic, and, like, I emailed them, because I was obviously on progesterone, or whatever it was I was on, and sort of said, I, you know, I'm having bleeding. Is there anything I need to change? Blah, blah, blah. And they were like, No, stick at it. Go, go to your local early pregnancy assessment unit. So yeah, they didn't. They didn't. They didn't offer to sort of see me or anything. And, yeah, told me to go with it.

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Amber Izzo  20:03  

Goodness me. I mean, how was when you did when you went to the EPU? Was, was Georgia allowed in then, or was was it on your own? 

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Katie Bouchier  20:13  

So we'd actually booked an early scan, like a private early scan, because we'd wanted to to check everything was okay, and that was around six weeks and a cliff, who scanned me said that I was having it in a topic pregnancy, and they made me go in a ambulance to the hospital. And I was like, Wow, I'll just drive. Like, it's fine. There's a hospital down the road. And she was like, Oh no, because if it's an ectopic, it could rupture any minute, and you're not allowed to drive. And like, really scared me. So I got sent off to hospital, and I had to wait in the in the early pregnancy unit, then by myself, they they scanned me, and was like, No, everybody you know, the baby's there, heartbeats there and everything. 

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Amber Izzo  21:06  

Oh, my God, that's terrifying.

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Katie Bouchier  21:07  

That was pretty horrific. And then, because I'd been to the early pregnancy unit for that, they said that they would re scan me at 10 weeks. And that's when they went back and, and there wasn't a heartbeat So, but, yeah, Georgia wasn't allowed in. There was nobody there. Like, it's, you know, that's a horrific thing to hear for anyone, let alone by yourself, in a room like, and even then, they were rubbish because they were like, Oh, we have a grief support. Here's a leaflet. Go, go home and expect a bad period. Like, there's no there was no information on it. There's nothing like you know till you experience loss, you don't. It's still such a taboo subject, and it's just really shit, if I'm honest,

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Amber Izzo  22:05  

I mean, I can't imagine being in that room on your own, and, you know, sadly, like, through covid, so many people had to go through that, yeah, and it is so sad, and it's so upsetting. And I think, you know, hard enough for you, but like I say, for Georgia too, not to be there and be hearing all this news, kind of secondhand, and not being able to be there and support you. I mean, how did she take that? How did she deal with with going through that separately to you? 

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Katie Bouchier  22:33  

I suppose, in some ways

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I think, I think she probably did struggle. But I think for my sake, she put on a brave face, like, I remember her saying, like, she was like, well, it's happening to you, like, and I was like, Well, no, it's happening to us. But she kind of, I think, almost disassociated herself from the whole thing, because she hadn't been been part of it, and it did affect her, but she she put on like a like she went to work straight away, and all of that stuff, and then she sort of had a bit of a wobble, or whatever, once, once it finally hit her. I think it took her a little bit longer to sink in, because she hadn't there and and seen it firsthand and heard it firsthand and stuff. It's almost like she, yeah, disassociated from it. And she sort of was like, oh, no, it's fine. I'm just gonna carry on. I'll look after you. And then it was later that she she got, like, hit by the emotion of it.

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Amber Izzo  23:33  

 Yeah, I imagine for her, it must have almost felt like she was quite separate from it if she wasn't able to be with you during the treatment. Yeah, and all of that you'd gone through kind of on your own, and her sat in a car park to then the same happening when you go through a loss like for her, that must have felt like she was very separate from it. And so that, you know, I can totally understand why that would then hit her at a later date, almost. I mean, how soon after that did you then start looking at the IVF process? 

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Katie Bouchier  24:06  

Not, not really soon, to be honest. So one financially, we were like, we can't really, you know, afford it. We'd moved house not long before. We'd started treatment anyway, and we just got married, we had a very heavy financial year, and emotionally I wasn't ready, like I the thought of getting pregnant again was terrifying, like it was something that I definitely wanted to do and have a baby, but the the thought of a potential loss was just it was too much for me. I couldn't, I couldn't do it. So we, I think we had, maybe about, we had definitely, like, two or three months where we didn't even think of it. And I think by the time we went for IVF. It maybe been six or seven months loss. So it wasn't, it wasn't a vast amount of time, but it wasn't, you know, the cycle after, or anything. It wasn't...

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Amber Izzo  25:10  

Yeah, so no, of course, I think so you, you've mentioned that obviously you went to Greece for your IVF. I mean, what was, I know that you mentioned, it was obviously, like, partially financial reasons. What was that entire process like? Like, how did you go from doing the IUI to deciding that you were doing IVF and deciding that you were going to do that abroad? Like, what was that? Because, from personal experience, I've gone through the process of looking at clinics abroad and narrowing it down and trying to find that right clinic for you, yeah? And understanding the logistics around that. And it blew my mind, because you go from looking from clinics on this tiny little island to suddenly an entire continent, and there's suddenly so many more at your disposal, and you don't, you don't really know what your or, I didn't feel like I knew what I was looking for in the slightest. Yeah, so how was that process for you? Like, what were your reasonings for going abroad? And then, how did you find the clinic that was right for you at the time?

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Katie Bouchier  26:08  

So, yeah, a lot of it was a financial decision. Isn't in that it was cheaper. So I'd been looking at, I had also had the discussion with my my clinic, that I'd had the IUI that I wanted to move on to IVF, and it was all set to sort of go ahead with them. And by this point, I'd seen like a Facebook advert or something for Gaia, and I filled in the details like this was like when they first started, and said, Yeah, give me a call and we'll talk about it. And I forgot, I almost forgot all about it, and I, in fact, I did forget all about it, and the call that I was supposed to have. Well, never mind like it's, it doesn't sound like it's a legit thing, like whatever. And then, funnily enough, it was you. You did a live with Lucy.

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Amber Izzo  27:02  

Ah, yes, I remembered it in this live!

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Katie Bouchier  27:05  

Yeah, and you, and I was watching it, and I think one of the questions was, Oh, can you use Gaia for clinics abroad? And she was like, Yeah. And I was like, oh, okay, because I, the reason I didn't think you know that I could go was because I, at that point, I was like, well, maybe I could use Gaia, and I'd have to do it in the UK, and blah, blah, blah and all of this stuff. So thank you. You're probably one of many turning cogs that got me to my my little boy.

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But,

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yeah, after that, I'd been sort of dabbling in, you know, clinics abroad, looking abroad, following Emma, your IVF abroad, like sort of trying, just in the background, squirreling away, you know, my lunch break, Googling clinics, like looking at Spain, looking in Greeks, looking at all of that stuff. And you know, when I heard that we could go abroad with Gaia, then I sort of got my my game head on, and I joined a lot of Facebook groups. So there's like, like, each clinic has their own like fan page, as I called it. It's hearing it's silently stalking these pages. I don't like necessarily boast in them, but

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Amber Izzo  28:30  

I'm the same. I mean a few of them, yeah, clinics abroad, yeah. Just reading experiences 

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Katie Bouchier  28:35  

Exactly yeah. It's you live vicariously through for all these people. And it was, it was that that helped me. And I'd sort of settled on Greece finally, and then arranged a few consultations, and we went to arc it in Athens. And honestly, the decision was made, made solely on the fact that we had a consultation, and the doctor there was just phenomenal. Like, in my opinion, he, he was compassionate, he was warm. He listened to us, he he treated us as individuals. He was, you know, so, you know, caring towards Georgia like, absolutely involved her in the in the Skype call, like, you know, made sure she was listened to. And there was just lots of reasons that we decided to go with them, but Dr George is, is the main one.

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Amber Izzo  29:48  

I think I've, I've met Dr George, and I think he's wonderful. So I absolutely second what you say there. I think it's, um, I think it makes such a difference, doesn't it? When you have a consultant that that cares and makes. That effort with you, yeah, but even more so, I think with your partner, I think obviously our situations are different, you know, I obviously have a husband, and he was, you know, always almost felt like he was left out of it. So it was lovely to have that involvement. And so for Georgia, that must, must have felt completely different, and have been really lovely for her, actually, to feel like she was part of the process. So from that point, I mean, what, what logistics did? I think this is one thing that I think I know when people do look to go for IVF abroad, people get a bit, not necessarily put off, but are concerned somewhat about the actual logistics of how long I've got to be out there, or where do I stay, when do I go? And, you know, especially when you don't always know when your cycle is going to start. Like, you know, you can have an idea of when your period's going to start, but you don't necessarily know the exact date. So for you, how was it kind of working out those logistics?

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Katie Bouchier  30:58  

It was

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interesting.

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Yeah, I love a good

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a good challenge. And I'm, I'm a I'm a planner by nature, and I love to travel. So like, honestly, it tied all of my strengths into into one thing. Luckily, I was quite regular then, anyway, with my cycle, so it was pretty easy to predict, and I I did book my flights and accommodation before. Like, not, not, you know, months and months in before, but, like, I left myself a few days, like, wiggle room for, you know, any variations in my cycle, but part of, part of choosing Athens, was that you can get flights cheap flights to them like round or you're not necessarily cheap all the time, but like they do, fly a year round, because there were some clinics I looked at where you could only fly there between March and September or something, and that's no good if you want to have IVF outside of those times

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Amber Izzo  32:09  

They cater the flights for party season and not for not for anything else, yeah,

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Katie Bouchier  32:13  

How dare they not include medical tourism in their flight pattern. So it is, it is a minefield, and it's, you've got to think of like it, you know, extra things like insurance, things like ship, shipping in your drugs from somewhere else. Whereas, you know, if you did it in a UK clinic, Chancellor, they, you know, prescribe you and managed to get it there. So you got to think of you're going to buy them online, or you've got to do all that. You've got to, but yeah, book your flights, find a hotel that's near enough to the clinic that you could get to the clinic easily, slash, not just next to a hospital in Greece. So you can actually enjoy some time while you're away. So there's lots of things to think about, but it's, it's almost, yeah, I don't know. It's almost a healthy challenge. It's, it's a good distraction from the actual treatment I found, like, rather than obsessing about injections and all of that stuff, I'm like, right? Airport, parking, go, you know, hotel go, like it was, it was almost a welcome distraction than than thinking, oh God, where's my period. Oh god, I've got to start doing this. Or, you know, so there's benefits and negatives, but I quite enjoyed it.

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Amber Izzo  33:45  

Yeah. What was it like being out there? What was it? I mean, obviously it was your first experience of actually doing IVF, yeah, I suppose you had nothing to compare it to, from a UK perspective in terms of doing IVF. But what, was it like going through this treatment that you'd never been been through before. I suppose you didn't know how you were going to respond to certain medications, and I imagine you started some of it in the UK before getting out there, but obviously you were going into the unknown somewhat. So what was it like doing that abroad? Had Georgia gone with you? Like, yeah, tell me everything,

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Katie Bouchier  34:21  

Yeah. So George, okay. We, we had all our medication delivered to yet to our house in the UK, and we did five or seven days of stims before we flew out. I was at, yeah, I was at Soz law that that that cycle, I was actually late and I and I was probably because I was stressed, because I booked my flights in a comic like, I'm regular, I know when I can fly up to Greece.

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I was like, Oh, my God, what have I

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done? I actually went to I was doing acupuncture at the time. When I went to my I booked an appointment, and I was like, make it start. And I had acupuncture. And on the drive home, I came on, so, oh, amazing. Big tick for acupuncture. But yeah. So we did the injections in the UK, but because I was late, we ended up flying out a bit earlier than they would normally suggest. Like I think they would normally say, fly out on day seven or something. We end day five. So they would have liked us to get a scan in the UK before we flew out, but I'd already looked everything, so I was like, well, we're gonna go anyway, whether I'm responding to the drugs or not. And we just emailed the clinic and said, Hey, is it okay if we come out now and this date and get our scans and stuff there, which in the end, saved us, obviously, the money of having to pay for a private scan in the UK. So that was really good. And we stayed in an apartment because we knew we were going to be there for, you know, a couple of weeks. And I'd booked the time off work. George got the time off work. I had, you know, chatted to my my employers at the time and said, Could I, like work from home, but abroad whilst having treatment? And, you know, they were okay with it. But luckily, I had annual leave, and I decided, for me, because it was unknown, I was like, I don't want the stress of having to make sure I've got a good Wi Fi and do work and stuff. So I was very fortunate that I had, I had the the annual leaves to take. So yeah, we hold up in this apartment by the by the hospital, rather than a hotel room. It just felt right for us that we had, like the space and a fridge, obviously, for medication and all sorts of fun things that you don't think about. And the rest of the time we were just tourists, like we it was again a welcome distraction to to go to the Acropolis. We went on one of those open top bus tours that you get everyone in. But, you know, I personally find that you have to do anywhere you go. There they have them. So it was, it was nice, yeah,

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Amber Izzo  37:33  

Yeah. I think I hear that a lot, actually, about how some people do just choose to kind of not approach it like a holiday, but it is that welcome distraction, and it is just something that you're away from your everyday life. And you can afford to kind of, I don't want to say, relax, but you can afford to kind of distract yourself and do things that are slightly different to the norm and things you wouldn't be doing every day, so that at the end of the day, no matter what the outcome, you still have those memories that you've made somewhere else, doing something completely different. So going abroad, you obviously have things to consider anyway. As a same sex couple like you don't know how progressive a country is going to be. You don't know kind of what their laws are, or what their political views are, if you like. So there are things that you have to consider anyway. Unfortunately, just going on holiday. So going for fertility treatment. Was this something that you had to really consider, and how much thought did you give this? And then what, I suppose, what was it like when you were out there?

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Katie Bouchier  38:33  

Yeah, I mean, is, is always in the back of your mind, whether you know you're in a foreign country, or you're at home, it's, I think that's something that will always be, you know, you'll always be aware of as in a same sex couple, in terms of, yeah, traveling, specifically, one of the really lovely things about Dr George was how welcome he made Georgia feel. And he told us in our first consultation, he was like, you will both be very welcome here and both be very welcome in the clinic and in Greece itself. He said, however, the their legislation hadn't been updated. You know, for for quite some time, and they wouldn't allow sort of same sex couples to have treatment, but there was a way that, you know, that they would have been able to provide that regardless. And the way that we had to get around it was that I had to get sign a document and get it like notarized, that I was receiving treatment as a single woman, which is odd, you know, self but. But he made that very, very clear from the first consultation. So it wasn't, it wasn't a surprise to us. We factored that in when we made the decision to go with them. And to be honest, it's a bit of paper in Greece. What does it matter? What to us and our family, we knew that the baby wasn't going to be born in Greece. We knew that, you know, it wouldn't affect how His birth was registered in the UK, and George's legal rights as a parent in the UK. So it didn't, it didn't deter us from treatment. And obviously, we did our due diligence with, you know, making sure that Greece in general was, you know, friendly, and there weren't any like, you know, it wasn't illegal to be gay, etc. But, yeah, it's, it is always something that you consider. And when we were looking at other countries, you know, there are other countries where it is a lot harder or it isn't as socially accepted, and immediately they were right off like even if they could have been, you know, even cheaper than Greece or whatever, and we still wouldn't have gone, because it wouldn't have been worth it to us as who we are and and how we identify, and, you know, who we love. We're not gonna we're not gonna compromise on that. Little things like the notary saying that I was receiving treatment by myself fine, going to this country where we, you know, actively, you know, hated on. No, yeah.

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Amber Izzo  41:47  

I mean, how was signing that for I know, obviously, you know, like you say, it's just a piece of paper to you, but I think for Georgia, did she feel exactly the same of, was she not concerned, as, if you like, about having to sign this piece of paper to say that you're going through it on your own.

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Katie Bouchier  42:04  

I think it did set her to a certain extent, because it was probably, I don't know, maybe quite, you know, reminiscent of the treatment that we'd had in the UK in terms of she would be involved, but she was more apprehensive about it before we got to Greece, and then when we were actually there, and we, you know, we'd met the clinical team in person, and we, we, you know, we'd spent some time at the clinic, and we've been around these people. It, you know, that it wasn't even, it wasn't anything. It was by that stage, we were like, well, we're definitely in the right place. This is where we want to be. This is where we want to have our treatment. So it kind of, you know, they were very good at, at taking away those, you know, anxieties about, about it. So yes, it was a, oh, it's a bit rubbish. But look at what, look at where we are, look at what we're doing, and look at what we could get. So,

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Amber Izzo  43:08  

Yeah. So in the bigger picture, it almost became redundant. I suppose it was just Yeah, non event

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Katie Bouchier  43:13  

 Yeah, yeah, if they do that

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in the UK, and it was going to be that there was difficulties in her having, like, legal guardianship, or parent ship or whatever it's called guardianship. Is it then possibility? Yeah, there then Yeah, been a massive, a massive thing. But we knew that we, like, we checked with, with Dr George, and we, you know, we checked on here. I think I spoke to somebody. I can't remember who I spoke to, but made sure that, like legally and stuff, when we were here, even if we had treatment abroad, we were good to go, and that we would both be, both be the legal parent and and we were so it was fine. Yeah,

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Amber Izzo  43:56  

No, that's good. I mean, so am I right in thinking then that this cycle was successful for you. It was your first attempt at IVF in Greece that that did ultimately result in your son. 

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Katie Bouchier  44:08  

Yeah. So, yeah, first, first IVF. And it was a fresh, fresh cycle, fresh transfer on that cycle.

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Amber Izzo  44:17  

So lucky, lovely. So I mean, going through the going through the process abroad, again, with the span donor, did you have, did you use the same donor that you using for IUI, or did you go through the process in Greece? 

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Katie Bouchier  44:29  

So we couldn't use the same donor, because the donor that we're using in, okay, in the UK was a known donor, and Greece can only accept, um, closed donors like he, we had to pick again, and we, we, we'd had, actually some, some vials of our previous UK one in storage with the European sperm bank. But because it hadn't left the sperm bank, we. Able to return it almost, and pick a pick a clothes donor. But that was all a very, I remember it being a very, sort of a last minute panic, because we were like, yeah, we've got sperm. It's fine. We've got some stored in the cryo bank. We'll just send it to us. And then it was saying, actually, the European bank that were like, you know, you can't use that in Greece. We won't ship it to Greece. And I was like, why? Like, why would you ship it to Greece? It's mine. Like, like, we're employed. I'm like, I'm flying out there in a few weeks. Just send it like, and then they were like, No, the legislation is you physically can't use. So then it was another sort of mad rush, going through all the all the different profiles again, and picking another donor that we could use in Greece. And I remember Georgia was at work, and I was she works away, and I must have really annoyed her, because I was sending her, like, what about this one? What about this one? Like, screenshotting, like, what about this one? What about this one? And she's like, I physically I'm looking after other children right now. I can't sit down and look at sperm donors, like, and I'm like, but I need to know, because we're going to Greece. Like, I need to know. And so I didn't, obviously, but she'd got to the point where she's like, Stop sending me pictures of sperm donors. Yeah.

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Amber Izzo  46:32  

So when, obviously, when you got home, everything you know it, you'd got the successful test, the positive test, even, sorry, I mean, how was it, I suppose, navigating, navigating pregnancy after IVF, after you'd been through a loss, like, did you feel that you were kind of more aware of of things at this time or, or did you feel like you could lean into the pregnancy?

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Katie Bouchier  46:59  

Um, no, it was horrific. Uh, I'd like, my, yeah, my only experience of pregnancy before that had been lost and I was, I was, I was shocked honestly at how immediately the anxiety saying, like, like, Yes, I was elated that it was a positive pregnancy test, but my brain probably was in half a second was like, well, you know, it could all go wrong, right? So I did really struggle, actually, for a while, well, until Eddie was born, and I held him and he was on me breathing. That was when I fully only allowed myself to believe that I was having a baby. Yeah, it was so it was a long, a long time being pregnant with that sort of fear. And I think, you know, there's obviously a big online community for people going through IVF and IUI and the, you know, whether they're in a heterosexual couple or, you know, same sex couple, solo parenting, whatever, which is a blessing and a curse. And I remember being like, I know so much more now about bad things, because I've seen other people go through it, or I've, I've, you know, I've experienced loss, but I've, you know, when you, when you're in that world, you know, even digitally, you, you become aware of all these things, and it's really hard to to stop yourself going down that rabbit hole and being like, well, that could be that, that could be that, that could be this. But on the other hand, you do have, you do make really, you know, really good connections with people, and you have somebody that you can talk to and, you know, chew their ear off, and people that they get it and who have been through similar stuff. So it's, it's a double edged sword. In my opinion,

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Amber Izzo  49:13  

I got goosebumps when you were talking about that, because I resonate with that so much. I think it's such a beautiful, wonderful wonderful space to be able to meet all these different people and share your stories, and, you know, feel really heard, seen, validated, all these different things, but I was exactly the same. And the second I got that positive test, I knew this has happened to this person. This has happened to this person. Why won't it happen to me? You're you're almost more exposed to it, in many ways, and in some ways it's great, because I think you're able to advocate for yourself so much more. You know what to look for. There's people there that will support you no matter what the outcome. But I completely agree that sometimes it's you almost wish that you were oblivious to things. So yeah. I can, I completely resonated with you there, like that. That was really quite a Oh god. I feel you there. Yeah, through and through. And I suppose just to tie off, obviously you did mention at the beginning that you did this with Gaia. So I mean, for you, obviously, this is a Gaia podcast. But you know, you came to Gaia before I came to Gaia, and I'm just interested, really, from your perspective, how it was kind of going through that process having used Gaia and being a Gaia member.

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Katie Bouchier  50:31  

So I think especially with being abroad, it it took out a lot of the stress in terms of like, and even things like, you know, non Sterling transaction fees. Like, I didn't have to worry about that. I didn't have to think, how am I paying this in euros? How are they, how's the bank? Are they going to take my debit card? Are they going to take my credit card? Blah, blah, blah. It was very nice to know that that was taken care of, and I literally just walked into the clinic like, yeah, Gaia saw it. It's fine. It's painful. So financially that that makes it a breeze. But I think that the biggest thing for us was that it was, it's it took the pressure off. It Like It, it was my, obviously, my first round of IVF, but I had had an IUI, and I'd put so much pressure on myself, because you're spending x amount on the treatment, X amount on the donor sperm and all of this stuff. And you're like, come on, it's got to work. This is costing me this much money, whereas with Gaia, it's the the insurance part of it that you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket, you know, excuse the pun there, but like it's if it doesn't work, you haven't just spent, for us all of your money and no no baby or no chance at a baby. So it was almost, I don't know how really to explain it, other than that, it it felt no pressure, like if it yes, it would be devastating if it didn't work, but it wouldn't be, that's it. The end, we can't try again. It was a it doesn't matter if it doesn't work, because we can try again.

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Like if that makes any sense? 

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Amber Izzo  52:33  

Yeah, absolutely

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Absolutely. It made perfect sense. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Katie, it has been so lovely talking to you. So thank you so much for joining us. I don't know if you have an open instant. I mean, I know that I've got you on Instagram, but I don't know whether or not your accounts open. So if you'd like to share where people can find you, then that's great. If you don't, that's great too. Like it's up to you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1  52:58  

We're we @thebouchiers, I think we might be the underscore Bouchiers, I don't know, but yeah, that's got everything from from from us getting married to, I don't know, the last time I post, because it's much harder now I have a tiny people live, but we, yeah, we're the bouchiers on Instagram, And yeah, and we'd happily help other people who need to need some information. Of course, we've really found being online a blessing. So yeah, happy to share.

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Amber Izzo  53:33  

Thank you so much, Katie, it really has been a pleasure. Take care. Thank you, bae. Katie, everyone. She is so great, and I love speaking to her. Her and Georgia have been on such a journey to have their little boy, and it is always a pleasure hearing from her. We will be back next week for another episode of Misconception with another great guest. So until then, have a great week.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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